DEF fluid in heavy equipment !!

[Supermario]

I couldn't decide if I should post in general discussions or here but nobody has anything good to say about DPF's , regen and all that stuff so I think this is the right place.
i don't work on trucks, I'm all heavy equipment and have only seen the second generation or tier 4 interm systems like on this 336E excavator which is built like a module and easy to remove in one big chunk. Heck, atleast you see the engine!

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/a402adbcbd301c9ba3765128a1b2764c_zpsc995xe6e.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/9abf2fa51df34f59037c4d6f1b510a8c_zps6ldi40se.jpg

But the other day a brand new 140M grader rolled in the yard. (Going out for sales demo).

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/10170f87118e9ce26332b29266d26c49_zpsyuppfofi.jpg




I figured I'd take a peak. My heart skipped and I thought , oh no when I saw this.....

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/c7ff6e4faff9e41379826f84903b8761_zps6wx3l0az.jpg

Then I made the mistake of opening the engine compartment doors :eek::jaw: I think there's a motor in there somewhere:confused:

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/0020a4e3cfdfe2e651303ef5591fb303_zpskyoh27po.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y447/catman4088/f01e8bb0cabd7800eb3143ffed231240_zpsmq84ueer.jpg

So now you know why I posted this here.:( am I ever glad I'm at the tail end of my career on the shop floor.:) I pity the new up and coming young guys.;):D

[TRUCKMAKER]

Your lucky Mario I've been dealing with it since '07!

[thebigo]

Can the DEF system be removed by the owner after warranty, without any negative effects?

David

[TRUCKMAKER]

Can the DEF system be removed by the owner after warranty, without any negative effects?

David

No, due to the computers it will cause the engines to shut down. There are ways to cheat the system but usually its a temporary thing.

[1strodeo]

They even have it on diesel forklifts. They come standard on everything now

[sparkycuda]

I'm a technical instructor for the Komatsu distributor in Kentucky and Indiana. Tier 4 Final (with DPF and DEF) has been standard on most new machines for over a year. Actually, we have found the Final versions to be less troublesome than the Interim engines. BUT, customer acceptance and willingness to learn the newly-required maintenance and upkeep continues to be a real headache. Some operators keep pushing the "Delay Regeneration" button until the DPF is so clogged it can't regen. They think if they ignore it, it will go away.

Shoe-horning all the "stuff" under the hood of loaders, excavators, trucks, dozers, graders, etc., reminds me of what we do with our models. Some machines have gotten bigger hoods just to get everything inside.

It's here, and we are stuck with it! I heard Europe is considering a Tier 5 engine and the US wants to reduce diesel fuel consumption. Estimates are $12,000 to $15,000 more per engine to get where the Feds want to go.

Have a great day!

Ken

[Supermario]

That's a good point Kent. It is just like stuffing all our gear in the RC's.:)

It's when I see something as simple as a valve set turns into a major tear down to accomplish......sorry, it's the old school in me :p.
The first tier 4 final I saw was a 980 about a year ago. So far so good because none of the ones in our neighbourhood has been in the shop. So far, feild service is able to deal with them.
This is the first grader I've seen. Everything so tight and awkward.....reminds me of underground equipment!! :eek::mad:

Getting customers up to speed will definitely be a challenge. It reminds me of the change in hydraulic systems. When tolerances became tighter, orfices and resolvers became smaller and yet nobody cared about getting dirt in a system. Heck, you could pour sand in a D8K hydraulic tank and never know it, what's different now? :lol:
So much self inflicted abuse on equipment due to not keeping the dirt out then, as we will see with the new way of doing things today.

That's my rant.... I'm done:D

[Lil Giants]

Tier 4 NH combine last yr... had to quit early twice last yr b/c of a def glitch that put engine into limp mode, then loose two hrs 1st thing in the morning while mechanic does a computer flush... and then there's the 210L def barrel to pack around in the fuel trk... worst of all my fuel consumption has gone up about 10 - 15%, burn 1.15L of fuel to lower ppm per 1 L... insanity! :mad:

[Supermario]

Your right Joe, it's crazy. The focus use to be on conserving fuel and being more efficient. Now it's all about the atmosphere and environment, the heck with fuel burned as machines temporarily turn into incinerators, use massive amounts of fuel to clean up the crap stuck in a filter trying to save the atmosphere?

[thebigo]

1952 John Deere Detroit diesel crawler loader, 1985 Ford LT9000 big cam cummins dump truck, 1997 New Holland 865 Skid steer, 2007 John deere 3203 utility tractor, 2005 Ford powerstroke, all non-def/dpf. The only diesel I have that has that crap is my 2013 VW Passat TDI. With a little care, I hope they will last me for the rest of my life so i will not have to upgrade or down grade...

[sparkycuda]

Mario, you are so right about the old iron. Before 1996, off-road diesel fuel filters were 40 micron, then changed to 15 and when Tier 2 engines came out in late '90s, then went to 2 micron. We had more problems with filters clogging from fuel gotten from worksite tanks than any problems the engines had. Old hydraulic systems could eat a bunch of dirt and not be a problem. But as pressures went above 5000 psi and piston pumps became the norm, we saw all kinds of failures due to contamination. Yes, the new systems are more efficient and easier to operate, BUT they are horribly expensive and will not tolerate a bit of gunk in them. Guess that will keep the service departments busy for a long time!

Ken

[BRICKNICK]

It's horrible Mario I deal with it daily, and our brand new 950 wheel loader has had the cat tech at our shop at least 5 times in the first year for the dosing nozzle screen of the system getting clogged with debris and the loader will not regen and it derates power and etc..... Our new peterbilts showed up with check engine lights and still till this day the dealer can't get them to stay off. Everything we have with regen systems are horrible. Makes me not wanna be a mechanic since they allow pencil pushing politicians and legislatures decide how our equipment "should" be. They know nothing and mechanically understand less then nothing. When the peterbilt dealer held a local Q&A for all the dissatisfied customers and they're basic jist of the meeting to us customers was "bare with us, we are trying to get it right"....u know this are horribly wrong.

[doodlebug]

And the Cummins rep kept telling me, "We have to do our part". Well, going broke with garbage that nobody can fix, is not part of my game plan.
Blank the tree huggers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

[Lil Giants]

I've been casually shopping for a 35mt track hoe for the last yr, some Ritchie Bros auctions lately have had some 10 to 15,000hr JD350's on the lots & to my surprise the hoes have been selling in the $50 - 80k range... I would have thought equipment would have gotten cheaper by now with the $barrel of oil so low for the last yr, the patch has almost come to a halt in my area! But it's likely the contractors are trying to avoid buying new tier 4 garbage.

8 - 15yo trucks are going the same way, selling for more than double what they should be b/c tier 4 emissions is crap right off the lot!

[Mikem]

From a non 1-1 truck guy only 1/14 what is DEF fluid supposed to do , nobody here can seem to tell just u are to use it . Li'l giants my friend in town who has about 40 heavy equipment trucks keeps buying used engines and sending them out to be rebuilt . He has also complained about the price of used equipment . He also told me that the 4 companies making DEF are all owned by one senator in the U.S. . MIKE

[1strodeo]

This is a brief explanation thats in a powerpoint presentation I have on it :

SCR works by injecting a very precise amount of DEF into the vehicle’s hot exhaust stream where the urea is converted into ammonia.
Once inside the SCR catalyst, the ammonia gas forms a chemical reaction with the NOx emitted by the engine.
As a result of this chemical reaction, SCR converts NOx into water vapor and harmless nitrogen gas.

[Mikem]

Now that's as clear as the exhaust as I see out of trucks . Not picking on anyone but as I understand it you can drink it and laugh yourself silly ? Mike who has enough trouble with the electronics on a RC truck . Maybe soon I'll be taking my 1945 International A to work !

[Lil Giants]

It wouldn't surprise me to hear it was a politician that had a death grip on all the pollution control products, that's just the norm nowadays how those sleezebags make the rules to work in their favor at the expense of the middle class. :rolleyes:

[1strodeo]

Sounds about right

[arf1201]

Mine fell off ( with lots of help) on my 5500 and I picked up 2.5 mpg, our tractors are a nightmare with all the new emission stuff, always codes and derating.

[TRUCKMAKER]

It wouldn't surprise me to hear it was a politician that had a death grip on all the pollution control products, that's just the norm nowadays how those sleezebags make the rules to work in their favor at the expense of the middle class. :rolleyes:

You pretty much nailed it Joe.

[hammer]

DEF SUCKS,
I have that system on my roll off and if you dont keep your eye on the fluid level and it runs out you are screwed. That stuff stinks and if you spill it on the outside of tank and dont wipe it off it crystalizes...We have it also on our pick ups and the tank fill is next to diesel fill and guess what they poured DEF into the diesel tank 18,000 dollars later and new engine. That is why alot of guys are ordering glider kits that is the only way around not having to put a DEF system in a big rig.....

TONY

[DieselKid]

DEF SUCKS,
That is why alot of guys are ordering glider kits that is the only way around not having to put a DEF system in a big rig.....

TONY

Yep! There were a ton of vendors/dealers at MATS in Louisville this year advertising that approach because people are realizing how futile it is to run with all of the emissions BS!

Knock on wood our '14, '15, and now incoming '16 Cascadias with the DD13s and DEF have been pretty reliable units............almost 500,000 on one of the first '14s we took delivery of with a team in it..........engine light here and there for something non 'life threatening'. As long as the drivers keep an eye on that DEF gauge it's been smooth sailing. AND I CAN'T STRESS ENOUGH: STORAGE OF DEF IS THE KEY!......Don't Re-fill/reuse jugs of DEF......Go bulk for storage if at all possible in 250 gallon totes, etc. and pump direct. I've heard horror stories of owner opeators who refilled old washer fluid jugs, etc. with DEF and it bit them in the butt as far as contamination issues and picky sensors that noticed the difference, and derated power before completely shutting the unit down!:eek:

I do know this from the little we've had to do on them..............clean water will rinse any fittings/etc. that have crystalized DEF on them with relative ease, followed up with a blow gun.

Yeah I'm not a fan of DEF anymore than the next guy..........but having ripped my hair out and used the F-bomb in every way, shape, and form imaginable from being under the hood (actually behind the firewall on those bastards!) of the Maxxforce engines (also painted yellow depending on application but the same 6 cylinder scrap heap)...............I'll say I'm enjoying my days in the shop much better now, and so are the office girls with sensitive ears!!!:D I've got 18 2012 Prostars sitting out front right now that are being taken one by one out to Newark where they are getting put on a boat and heading to Vietnam!!! And those poor guys thought they won the war!!!:lol: Although they'll probably peel the EGR Valve, coolers, and the rest of the 'dead weight' off and maybe be left with a decent truck!:rolleyes:

Just my .02,

-Alex

[BRICKNICK]

Gotta love it Alex.... I just ran across a guy who hauls seafood out of Maine. He has 4 peterbilts 2 2013 and 2 2015. His buddy is a wiz with cars, running, and computer mapping and they figured out how to delete the egr valve, and def system put the step and exhaust back together to look like the scr filter is there but it isn't. And they sent the computers out to Europe to have them flashed to run with out the egr n regen system. So it looks stock but runs like a pre 2007 non emissions truck. He has 725k on one of the 2013 and just over 600k on the other 2013 and almost 300k on both 2015s all have had the systems deleted and he's had no problem. He learned his lessone after he replaced on regent system on one of the 2013 trucks with less then 250k on it. Constant trips to the dealer and constant tow bills. That's what cause him to eliminate that garbage and he loves life.

[Izzy]

Seen a newer f350 on a used lot with a Def tank

[DieselKid]

Gotta love it Alex.... I just ran across a guy who hauls seafood out of Maine. He has 4 peterbilts 2 2013 and 2 2015. His buddy is a wiz with cars, running, and computer mapping and they figured out how to delete the egr valve, and def system put the step and exhaust back together to look like the scr filter is there but it isn't. And they sent the computers out to Europe to have them flashed to run with out the egr n regen system. So it looks stock but runs like a pre 2007 non emissions truck. He has 725k on one of the 2013 and just over 600k on the other 2013 and almost 300k on both 2015s all have had the systems deleted and he's had no problem. He learned his lessone after he replaced on regent system on one of the 2013 trucks with less then 250k on it. Constant trips to the dealer and constant tow bills. That's what cause him to eliminate that garbage and he loves life.

Haha, heard a lot of similar stories Nick! There's a guy in southern Ohio who did some 'tweaking' on a few Kenworths that belong to a power only carrier that yanks our trailers when we broker loads.....he also was able to configure the parameters in such a way that fooled the ECU and Aftertreatment Control Module into believing that everything was still hooked up and keeping Obama happy!:D Night and day difference in the overall power, and leaps and bounds better when it comes to fuel economy without all that dead weight!

And in other news Navistar showed up late last week to start looking at the 2012 Maxxforce-Powered Prostars we are getting rid of so they could gather data from the ECUs/VIN history to figure out how many times each truck has had its EGR coolers/valve replaced both under warranty and in our shop after the warranty expired......this along with all of the other popular failures, some of which were not entirely Harvester's fault.....eg. air compressors, starters, alternators, etc. Their visit was not voluntary as Navistar is in the midst of a class-action lawsuit involving several fleets such as ours around the country who fell victim to the same nightmare we found ourselves living for a couple years!:eek: Our problem with 70 Prostars seems minimal when compared to the big fleets who purchase 2000+ tractors at the drop of a hat!

-Alex

[BRICKNICK]

That's insanity Alex I couldn't imagine buying 2000+ internationals especially since I hate internationals LoL. I wouldn't buy one of the those junk boxes, but that's just my opinion. I can't imagine the loss they faced with 2000+ internationals all new and constantly issues...