Robbe, Linde H50 fork lift truck

[Brel]

Here are a few pictures of my 1/16th Robbe, Linde H50 fork lift
The pallets are handmade and are based on the measurements I took at work of a CHEP blue pallet
The truck did not come with the beacon I ran the wires down the R/H rear support and the red blends in to make the black one look like a cable in flexible conduit
The rotating beacon is hard wired into the on/off switch which is next to the driver’s seat to make it look like one of the control levers
I need to get a driver figure for the truck


https://s25.postimg.org/fz9hxt6p7/2013-05-22_08.48.28.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/fz9hxt6p7/) https://s25.postimg.org/7yv79bprf/AZ010001.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/7yv79bprf/) https://s25.postimg.org/ms9uu2xij/AZ010002.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/ms9uu2xij/) https://s25.postimg.org/5wupv2rsb/AZ010003.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5wupv2rsb/)

[SonoranWraith]

The robbe forklift is my favorite. Nice addition with the beacon. :)

[russisloud]

that is a nice little ride, you have there

[Cossett]

Nice fork lift Brel:Ddo you have a vid of it in action and is that a Pistenking Beacon and if so what do you think about them?

Cheers Tracy

[Brel]

hi Tracy. no video at the moment and yes it is a pistenking beacon, the are a great little unit but a tad expensive at 38 Euros

[siuvinson]

hi Tracy. no video at the moment and yes it is a pistenking beacon, the are a great little unit but a tad expensive at 38 Euros

:eek: 38 Euros! That's nuts for a little light unit like that. They are pretty neat though...I wonder if there's anything similar in the states? I had to settle for a strobe light w/ an amber lense.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h415/siuvinson/048.jpg

[Brel]

:eek: 38 Euros! That's nuts for a little light unit like that. They are pretty neat though...I wonder if there's anything similar in the states? I had to settle for a strobe light w/ an amber lense.

I know, I must be nuts too because I have bought 5 of them now
I each for the Scania R620, Mercedes - Benz 1838ls, the Robbe FLT, a tracked loading shovel and my Tamiya Leopard 2A6 to replace the rather naff one that comes with the kit
I could have used a flashing orange LED to simulate a strobe type of beacon. But I liked the look of the pistenking rotating beacon.
I am now looking at fitting working head and tail lights to the truck as well, when I manage to get them sorted I will the shoot some video of the truck

[Tamiya Cowboy]

Is this the ready to run verison that is around 250 US..

[Brel]

Is this the ready to run verison that is around 250 US..

no Mate, It is not ready to run, it is a kit made by Robbe that cost me about US$800 last year or about £450 UK for the kit and all of the add-ons and shipping
I got it from AFV Germany
http://www.afv-model.com/4711shop/index.php?cat=c217_Fork-Lift-Truck-Linde-H50.html

[pigeonfarmboy]

Wow I had not paid attention to the increase in price of these! I paid 650 back in '08.

[Brel]

since I bought the truck they have dropped the price slightly

[will43209]

$800.00?! Its nice and I want a forklift for the Bud truck, but I'm not spending $800 for it. That's just way too high.

[Brel]

head lights have been fitted I need to get a driver and fit some more lights at the front because the fork carraige block the head lights that are mounted on the fenders, also need to fit some tail lights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN9000yL64c

[Brel]

some pictures of the mechanical workings of the truck,
https://s25.postimg.org/9j0zr3f3f/IMG_0642.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9j0zr3f3f/) https://s25.postimg.org/csk0baskr/IMG_0648.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/csk0baskr/) https://s25.postimg.org/5wv6eg8q3/IMG_0645.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5wv6eg8q3/) https://s25.postimg.org/9j0zr3f3f/IMG_0642.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9j0zr3f3f/)

[Brel]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/GEDC0424.jpg

[Brel]

I have found a driver figure for the FLT
from here http://verkerk.modelbouw-onlineshop.nl/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=42&osCsid=829a647909acbe87775c15df54325c96

[jjackso5]

Very nice Brel, great job with the adding the details.

Does anyone have a source in the US for these Robbe units?

Thank you for posting,

Jim

[pigeonfarmboy]

I don't know of anyone that carries them here. AFV Model is where I would get one.

[Brel]

I don't know of anyone that carries them here. AFV Model is where I would get one.

I got mine from AFV, I tried the Robbe site but they kept declining my credit card so I went to AFV and paid via paypal
http://www.afv-model.com/4711shop/index.php?cat=c217_Fork-Lift-Truck-Linde-H50.html

[Brel]

a short video of the FLT in action, the green crate has 800 gramms of wheel balancing weights in it the pallets weigh next to nothing, also the battery was going flat

truck is a Scania R620 and the trailer is a tamiya reefer built as a flatbed

click on picture to get the video (opens in a new tab)
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/th_Robbflt.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/?action=view&current=Robbflt.mp4)

[Brel]

I bought a Small propane tank to fit on the back of the Robbe FLT and it is the dog's danglies as far as I am concerned, it is an excellent model on it's own

I know the tank should be a red oxide colour to comply with UK safety regs, but it looked so good that I have decide to leave it white for the time being


https://s25.postimg.org/jef3u11yj/GEDC0042.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/jef3u11yj/) https://s25.postimg.org/72c7gje3v/GEDC0040.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/72c7gje3v/) https://s25.postimg.org/nig2mixwr/GEDC0036.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nig2mixwr/)

[crawler07]

this fork truck is awesome! And for the price it seems to be one **** of a deal.
did I figure it correct at a little over 550.00 US dollars?

[Brel]

that is about right and then there is shipping to the States to add to the cost of the model

[enginemiester]

I know that carson also manufactures a similar forklift, and is about $250 less shipping to the US. I know that Robbe makes good quality product, I don't know about carson though.

Matt

[pigeonfarmboy]

I now have both. The Robbe Unit is much more detailed and will hold up to more abuse. It's big downfall is it needs alot of gear reduction to operate better/easier. The Carson unit is nice but rather toy-like in some of it's components. You'll have just as much fun with either model though. Shame they don't make small enough units to fit into tamiya container trailers.

Propane tank looks killer Brel!

[Brel]

Propane tank looks killer Brel!

thanks, the tank is the wrong colour for the UK it should be a red oxide colour
I got it from the topic starter in this topic on the scale 4x4 RC forum
http://www.scale4x4rc.org/forums/showthread.php?p=870979#post870979

[Brel]

the cab is clipped together and is held onto the chassis by four screws two on either side of the truck
https://s25.postimg.org/4zsvzy5nv/AZ010009.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4zsvzy5nv/)

[kaptain Jack]

Hey, I got one to, looks nice on the shelf, I should play more with it,built it two years ago and haven't touched it since,cost me close to $800 can. I made my propane tank out of plumbing fittings and stuffed it with battery's for the spot light.

[Brel]

taken at the recent RCtankregiment autumn meet in Dunstable

my Robbe H50 in action

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Dunstable%20Oct%202012/P1011226.jpg
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Dunstable%20Oct%202012/P1011224.jpg

[540-MAN]

I ordered one of these about 3 weeks ago from a local hobby shop and still waiting for it to arrive. I can't wait until I get it, it's heaps better then the Carson ones.

When you purchase one of these do they come with the radio or do you have to buy that separate?

[Brel]

540-MAN you have to buy them separately

[540-MAN]

Just got my forklift today and started to try and put it together and found out the servo for the drive axle it has to be smaller then the steering one for it to fit in the small spot and also i have to get the battery box for it to. I wish i had of known this before i got home so now i have to go back to the hobby shop and get it. Luckly i have tomorrow off work.

I didnt think it would be this hard.

[Brel]

the small servo is for the mast to tilt there should be a motor for the drive axle

here is a picture of the internals, before I changed the 40mhz FM reciever for a planet R6M
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/GEDC0054.jpg

[540-MAN]

Just question mate whats that red box along side the drive gear in the front, is that the speed controller and is it needed?

[Brel]

yes it is needed, because it is an esc to lift the forks up and then lower them down again
the esc for the drive motor is behind the motor
the steering servo is under the counter weight and the tilt servo is in the front next to the drive gears
the motor on the mast raises and lowers the forks and is powered by the esc next to the drive gears

[540-MAN]

I just had another look this morning and I have that in the box as it comes with it but I need to get a speed controller for it and battery pack and smaller servo for the lifting. I wish the guys at the hoppy shop told me this as they are meant to be the agents for robbe in Perth.

Going back down there today to get it sorted out. I have never known something to be such a head case.

[Brel]

the link shows what i used for the esc for the forks motor
http://www.afv-model.com/4711shop/product_info.php?info=p2348_Relay-Switch-6V-5A---Nr--8283.html

this link show the esc for the drive system
http://www.afv-model.com/4711shop/product_info.php?info=p2273_Rokraft-50--P--8417.html

here is a link showing what seized battery I used
http://www.afv-model.com/4711shop/product_info.php?info=p2271_Power-Pack-5NIMH-2000--4552.html

the first picture is for the esc for the forks and the second picture is for the esc for the drive and the third picture shows the battery
the esc for the forks is just a on/off switch with no proportional control

[intz2nu]

I remember when these were released back in 2005 to go along with Robbe's RC Truck line. Then when people seen the price for such a little plastic (toy) alot of people backed away. Though as years passed it became the standard in the hobby as being the most popular and (only) choice for a fork-truck.

[tmac]

Has any one made a scale trailer where one of these forklifts sits on the back?

[Brel]

Has any one made a scale trailer where one of these forklifts sits on the back?

you mean something like the one in the 1st picture or do you mean one like the one with the fork lift truck on the trailer in the 2nd picture

[apfubar]

I think he was looking for something like shown in the following:
http://runnionequipmentcompany.blogspot.com.au/2010/12/palfinger-crayler-truck-or-trailer.html
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QFDg1iyIjkE/TQkalgkJoGI/AAAAAAAAAJE/ItT_WRvqZ9c/s1600/P1000567.JPG

Cheers,
AP

[WhiteWolf McBride]

I hate the back-arrow/page back, costs me posts WAY too often!

Beat me to it Apfubar!

I only know of one source for hese, and thats Bruder as usual. They have it available with trucks, but not separately like their normal forklift. And with less space inside, it would probably be much harder to adapt to R/C.

BTW, for those who have done it, which forklift is the most economical to convert and have decent functionality. I know of the Very Expensive Robbe Linde H50 ($500+), the lesser Carson 'toy' Linde H40 (180 Euro), and then it drops down to the static Bruder Linde H30 (#2510) at $28 & Still (#2511) at $30, with the tail-rider type on the Bruder 'Mack Granite' logistics trucks at $130 for the green cab/white body (2820), and $80 for the all-yellow DHL (2819). Here is a pic of the Bruder tail-rider:

http://www.playvaluetoys.com/product_images/a/2820_2__32132.jpg

Finally there is the pallet-truck, a hand-operated manipulator, thpough some higher-priced ones are powered: (#62200, $30)

http://www.playvaluetoys.com/productimage.php?product_id=7874

Opinions?

[Brel]

I think he was looking for something like shown in the following:
http://runnionequipmentcompany.blogspot.com.au/2010/12/palfinger-crayler-truck-or-trailer.html
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QFDg1iyIjkE/TQkalgkJoGI/AAAAAAAAAJE/ItT_WRvqZ9c/s1600/P1000567.JPG

Cheers,
AP

hmm A FLT like that would be hard to RC because the is not much bodywork to hide the electronics LOL

[Brel]

I have replaced the Futaba S3003 standard steering servo with a Futaba S3305 servo because this one has a higher torque rating than the standard servo and it improves the steering on carpet, the S3003 servo struggled on carpet to give full lock,g I am also reworking the wiring inside the truck to get rid of the "Birds nest", also replacing the on/off speed controller with an ESC to give better control on the forks elevation/lowering

[Brel]

some pictures of the work so far

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14104711_zps95d0dfc3.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14104711_zps95d0dfc3.jpg.html)

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-15214442_zps0f5bcbf0.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-15214442_zps0f5bcbf0.jpg.html)
before the alterations to the wiring

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14104717_zps625b52bf.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14104717_zps625b52bf.jpg.html)

after the alterations, the two black connectors on the left connect to the two ESC's , the white one in the middle connects to the orange flashing beacon and the black one on the right is the main battery connection

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-16082404_zps901102e9.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-16082404_zps901102e9.jpg.html)

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-16082404_zps901102e9.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-16082404_zps901102e9.jpg.html)
this is the type of ESC I am going to use for the forks lift/lower

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/brelewart/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14162845_zps7daad570.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/brelewart/media/Robbe%20FLT/2013-05-14162845_zps7daad570.jpg.html)

I have replaced the head lights and re-wired then to tidy up the wires in the truck, also going to shorten the servo leads to the tilt and steering servo and to the ESC's as well

[Brel]

added afire extinguisher to the FLT
https://s25.postimg.org/tdhzg3nzf/2013-05-21_10.45.36.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/tdhzg3nzf/) https://s25.postimg.org/wlmgt5a97/2013-05-21_10.46.04.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/wlmgt5a97/)

[justin]

Nice work on the forklift any videos of it yet

[Brel]

thanks Justin Video uploading to you tube as I type this

[Brel]

here is a video of the Fork lift truck in action

http://youtu.be/hELSFfLbueE

[FlyingBeagle]

Would you check your link, I am getting a message stating the video is private.

Thanks

[Brel]

Would you check your link, I am getting a message stating the video is private.

Thanks

Sorry, I have altered the link to public now. don't know why it did that

[Brel]

I have added a pair of extra headlights to the front of the cab using some brass tube and two 3mm white LED's and a resistor to reduce the voltage

https://s25.postimg.org/nbt6rya0b/GEDC0014.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nbt6rya0b/)

[Tamiya Cowboy]

very nice Brel..

[Brel]

very nice Brel..

Thanks Paul. there is more to follow in the fitting of reverse and brake lights, at a time when I get the time and parts to fit them
regards Stewart

[Stuff]

the video gone? says unavailable.

[Brel]

the video gone? says unavailable.

Stuff, I do not know what happened to the link as the video is still on youtube

try this link
http://youtu.be/3ExgVJAX6B0

the video was shot before I added the extra headlights to the front of the cab

[Supermario]

You've done a great job with upgrades and amazing details Brel. I like my H40 but your 50 model is such a nice looking forklift. Very well done!:cool:

Mario

[540-MAN]

It's looking good I just finished building mine after a few months of owning it but I was just wondering if anybody is having the same problem as I am. When mine is running the cogs on the motor are very noisy is it because its too tight and I have to loosen it off abit I have put a ton of grease on it to try and stop it but it doesn't seem to. Could somebody help out to try and solve the problem?

[Brel]

You've done a great job with upgrades and amazing details Brel. I like my H40 but your 50 model is such a nice looking forklift. Very well done!:cool:

Mario

Thanks Mario :cool: :cool:

It's looking good I just finished building mine after a few months of owning it but I was just wondering if anybody is having the same problem as I am. When mine is running the cogs on the motor are very noisy is it because its too tight and I have to loosen it off abit I have put a ton of grease on it to try and stop it but it doesn't seem to. Could somebody help out to try and solve the problem?

540-MAN, are you talking about the lift gear or the main drive
the lift gear on my H50 is quite loose, I used a sheet of paper between the worm drives and mountings on the mast to make sure that they would not bind up when I built it
as you can hear in the video the main drive and lift gears are very noisy and I don't think there is much that can be done to sort out the noise

http://youtu.be/3ExgVJAX6B0

[540-MAN]

Hey Brel mine is roughly sounding the same as yours on the main drive and lifting gear but there is a guy in the club of ours that has one of these and I was looking at it the other day and his wasn't as noisy for some reason so I got to thinking that the gears drives might be to close together may have to be loosen off. I tried packing it with high volume grease but hasn't stopped it. It gets annoying after awhile.

Also how did you get so much tilt on yours because mine doesn't tilt that much?

[Brel]

540-man
as for the tilt on the mast, I broke the original Robbe servo horn set up by over loading it, so I replace it with a small servo arm and replaced the rod that screws into the clevis that fits onto the mast and kept adjusting it until I got it to what it is now

[Brel]

540-MAN, Here is a shot of the tilt servo showing what I did to replace the original Robbe servo horn

https://s25.postimg.org/5wv6eg8q3/IMG_0645.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5wv6eg8q3/)

[540-MAN]

Thanks Brel ill have to have a look at mine and see what I can do with it to make it to have better tilt.

[Brel]

glad to help Mate, I had mine apart to take the picture of the tilt servo and rod and whilst I had it apart I moved the motor away from the gears slightly and used a piece of paper to space the gears before I re-tightened the screws and it seams to have reduced the racket the gears make slightly

[Brel]

A short video of the Robbe Linde H50 FLT unloading my Scania R620 and flatbed semi trailer
https://youtu.be/c02ICjiK11E

[Brel]

this is a repost of part of this topic showing the state of the FLT at the moment

I decided to update the electronics in the FLT and fitted a Servonaut S22 ESC and a Servonaut MFX for the lift motor. The S22 has outputs for brake and reversing lights, which have also been fitted using 3mm LEDs and resistors
It has only taken me 5 years to fit the reversing and brake lights
https://s25.postimg.org/rlynw20bv/IMG_0681.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rlynw20bv/) https://s25.postimg.org/a10qkou23/IMG_0676.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/a10qkou23/) https://s25.postimg.org/82u2mp1kb/IMG_0680.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/82u2mp1kb/) https://s25.postimg.org/muyse17hn/IMG_0678.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/muyse17hn/) https://s25.postimg.org/eki13bi97/IMG_0682.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/eki13bi97/) https://s25.postimg.org/wm1614ca3/IMG_0684.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/wm1614ca3/) https://s25.postimg.org/z339xj0h7/IMG_0641.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/z339xj0h7/) https://s25.postimg.org/9j0zr3f3f/IMG_0642.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9j0zr3f3f/) https://s25.postimg.org/5vl8l16wb/IMG_0644.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5vl8l16wb/) https://s25.postimg.org/5wv6eg8q3/IMG_0645.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5wv6eg8q3/) https://s25.postimg.org/oqgzbg6y3/IMG_0647.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/oqgzbg6y3/) https://s25.postimg.org/csk0baskr/IMG_0648.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/csk0baskr/)

[TheBennyB]

Awesome lift! 3d printed skid?

[egronvold]

Job well done getting all the electronics fitted.

[Brel]

Awesome lift! 3d printed skid?

If you mean the blue thing on the forks, it is a hand made wooden pallet, I measured a Blue CHEP pallet at work and did a rough drawing on the orrientation of the blocks to make the pallet myself out of wood because they look better than a plastic one

here is a picture of an unpainted one on the forks of the truck
https://s25.postimg.org/4aocc6q7f/GEDC0017.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4aocc6q7f/)

[Brel]

Job well done getting all the electronics fitted.

thank you my friend

[skeeter]

Do you have pics showing how you made the steering work? If I'm not mistaken isn't this a static Bruder model that you've converted to RC?

[Brel]

Do you have pics showing how you made the steering work? If I'm not mistaken isn't this a static Bruder model that you've converted to RC?

you are mistaken my friend about this Robbe Linde H50 fork lift truck being a Bruder conversion,

it is a full rc kit made by Robbe and not by Bruder, then after assembling the kit and painting some of the orange parts black, I added the electonics and swapped out the plastic steering axle for an alminium/aluminum one that I found on the internet

[skeeter]

you are mistaken my friend, as the title of this topic says "Robbe, Linde H50 fork lift truck"
it is a full rc kit made by Robbe, and not by Bruder

Thanks for the info. Do they still offer this for sale? I've found a few on Ebay, but they're well over 300.ooUSD each

[skeeter]

The one I've found, on Ebay, it's a Carson,
$281.6o USD PLUS $92.26 USD for shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/C907093-CARSON-1-14th-LINDE-H40-D-FORK-LIFT-TRUCK-R-C-RADIO-CONTROL-RTR-2-4GHz-/311900598003?epid=2254427524&hash=item489eb96ef3:g:Ej4AAOSw3YJZSimn

[Brel]

The Robbe model is rarer than rocking horse poop

go for the carson one they are just as good

[TheBennyB]

If you mean the blue thing on the forks, it is a hand made wooden pallet, I measured a Blue CHEP pallet at work and did a rough drawing on the orrientation of the blocks to make the pallet myself out of wood because they look better than a plastic one

here is a picture of an unpainted one on the forks of the truck
https://s25.postimg.org/4aocc6q7f/GEDC0017.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4aocc6q7f/)

Right on. If you ask me the bare wood looks great too.

[Brel]

video of the truck, unloading my Tamiya flatbed trailer built from the reefer kit
Tractor unit Tamiya Scania 6*4 R620,

https://youtu.be/c02ICjiK11E

[Rimrock]

I guess that the Robbe truck is more powerful? have read somewhere that the Carson lifts somthing like 0.2 kg, while the Robbe 1 kg. what's correct?)

[Brel]

I don't know anything about the Carson truck, the Robbe truck will lift about 1.2 KG

[Rimrock]

I don't know anything about the Carson truck, the Robbe truck will lift about 1.2 KG

Alright, 1.2kg is very good. -The Carson have much lower capasatiy, so there is a huge difference between those trucks, even they look similar. Sadly the Robbe truck is no longer in production.

[TheBennyB]

Sucks, used to find these on AFV models out of Germany till recently. Looks like they don't even carry Robbe anymore including their fire trucks and such.

[Brel]

Sucks, used to find these on AFV models out of Germany till recently. Looks like they don't even carry Robbe anymore including their fire trucks and such.

yer your right there I had a look on there for some ROBBE parts and the don't carry them any more

[Brel]

my Robbe Linde H50 fork lift in action
https://youtu.be/c02ICjiK11E

[frizzen]

Cool video, thanks for posting.
I've been wondering if an rc forklift is as much fun as they look. Been getting more interested since i've had to start running some with a loading platform on occasion at work.

Plus seems like a little warehouse would give a bunch of stuff to do without needing much space.

[Brel]

thanks the FLT is a great little truck to operate in a small area

[Brel]

new video
https://youtu.be/7ygUdbUg4G4
same truck movements from a different angle https://youtu.be/UxJHojFtqww

[skeeter]

I'd much like to get my hands on one of them, but they seem to be getting about as rare as unicorn poop!

[Brel]

I'd much like to get my hands on one of them, but they seem to be getting about as rare as unicorn poop!

skeeter, Robbe stopped making the Linde h50 several years ago and as you said rare as rocking horse dung