1/16 Bucyrus Erie 25B

[Jared]

After a year of drawing, losing files, drawing again, modifying, tweaking, jiggering, improving, and generally not leaving well enough alone, I'm finally cutting metal. I bought a "new" Clausing 8530 mill a couple months ago and after throwing some money at it I've got it running now, so my first project with it is a B-E 22B. I started cutting metal a couple of weeks ago but didn't have much to show until now.

This is an almost-scale model. I took a few liberties with dimensions and shapes to make machining and buying metal stock easier but on the whole it's pretty close. I don't have a real machine to measure, just a spec sheet with the major dimensions on it. Everything else I've had to guess by looking at pictures.

I haven't designed a boom and fairlead for it yet but it eventually it will be set up as a dragline and clam bucket.

So here goes...

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00307.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/FinalAssy.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/FinalAssy2.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/MachineryDeck22.jpg

All functions are modified servos. Makes it clean and easy that way. We'll see how they hold up.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/MachineryDeck2.jpg

Did a bunch of puttering around in the garage and I found these on the mill.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00303.jpg

Neither the track frame or carbody is finished yet. Got a bunch of 2-56 holes to drill and tap yet in the track frame and the carbody still needs to be hollowed out underneath to make room for the servos that will drive the tracks.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00305.jpg

Hopefully I can keep things going and get this done before summer. It looks like I'll be working a few hours from home for a while so progress updates may be sporadic.

[doodlebug]

Look's like a fun project, Thank's for sharing the progress!
Cheer's, Neil.

[SmallHaul]

Cool build. It will be fun to watch it come together.

[9W Monighan]

Looks like your off to a good start. If you need details of the machine,I can help. I have owners manuals and parts books for the 22B in my vast collection of Bucyrus-Erie memorabilia.

[Iron Art]

Jared, good to see a new project started. will be fun to watch it grow. Fred

[Brel]

this looks like it is going to be a very interesting build to watch

[FabOne]

This going to be an AWESOME design and build!! Keep us all posted with updates.

Thanks for sharing.

-Terry

[Jared]

Thanks, guys! Steve, the only thing I really need is the outside diameter of the swing circle hook roller path. I have a sneaking suspicion mine is too big but I hope not; I have it drawn for 90 teeth on the swing gear which will be really easy to cut on the rotary table without dividing plates. Probably your manuals don't give that, though. Do they have detailed drawings in them with dimensions? If they do I'll just get one.

Hi Fred, good to meet you at the Threshing Bee. Don't let me go too long between updates.

[rc_farmer]

This is going to be an exciting build to follow.

[Jared]

Don't worry about it, Steve. D8R Dan fixed me up with a drawing.

[9W Monighan]

The slewing ring measures 60''dia X 47''dia in the hook roller grooves X 9''thick.I count 64T on the internal ring and it looks to be about a 42'' PD. The pinion appears to be 16T. I don't know how you're going to cut the internal ring though. I have measurements for the A frame and the correct wire rope sizes and lengths. This IS going to be a dragline ,Correct? I can also get you some pictures and sizes of the fairlead in the spring when we have our outdoor show. The books I have show alot of details. Especially the 22-RB books.

[modelman]

A scratch build and a cable machine! My-2-favorite things! I will follow this closely. I'm sure you will put a lot of work and $$ in this project but I am not sure about your decision to use servos for your drums. I don't think they will last. Gearmotors would be a better choice in my opinion but maybe you have thought this thru. Sometimes taking the easy way out will cost you in the end but I wish you luck and keep the pictures coming.

[Jared]

The slewing ring measures 60''dia X 47''dia in the hook roller grooves X 9''thick.I count 64T on the internal ring and it looks to be about a 42'' PD. The pinion appears to be 16T. I don't know how you're going to cut the internal ring though. I have measurements for the A frame and the correct wire rope sizes and lengths. This IS going to be a dragline ,Correct? I can also get you some pictures and sizes of the fairlead in the spring when we have our outdoor show. The books I have show alot of details. Especially the 22-RB books.

That's great, Steve! You're a gold mine. Turns out mine is a little smaller. It scales out to 56 inches so I can make it bigger which means that the rest of the undercarriage is pretty close. I was worried I might have jumped the gun and started building too soon.
I've got a shaper that once I make a new gib for the table it should be good to go. I traded 20 hours of labor for it. A friend of mine was going to tear it apart to shake his gold separating table and I talked him out of it. The real trick will be to grind the tool to the proper profile. I think I'm going to stick with the 32 pitch 90 tooth gear, even though 24P 60-something teeth would be more scale simply because the bigger the teeth get, the higher the gear ratio gets and the harder the swing servo will have to work. The one I'm using is the slowest low-profile servo I could find and I'll still have to slow it down some.
The A-frame mesurements would be good, too. I just eyeballed it and I think I'm close but measurements can't be beat. Basically I just need to know how far it is from something like the center of rotation or the boom pins, and how high.
It will be a dragline and fairlead details would be excellent. I haven't been able to find any good pictures that show how it mounts to the deck. I know it pins to the boom foot.

A scratch build and a cable machine! My-2-favorite things! I will follow this closely. I'm sure you will put a lot of work and $$ in this project but I am not sure about your decision to use servos for your drums. I don't think they will last. Gearmotors would be a better choice in my opinion but maybe you have thought this thru. Sometimes taking the easy way out will cost you in the end but I wish you luck and keep the pictures coming.

I think I'll be ok. At least I hope so. I'm using a pair of servos I already have for the hoist drums. They are Hitech HS-965MGs that are supposed to make 139 in/oz of torque and my drums have a .5 in radius so that means theoretically they should be able to lift 17.375 lbs. I think a bucket full of sand will weigh 2 or 3 lbs so I think they'll hold up. I've already got 6 or 8 hours on them in my other crane and they don't seem to be bothered any. We'll find out. If nothing else, I'll say I'm conducting research for the good of the hobby finding out how servos like this application. The servos have metal gears and dual ball bearings, plus the drums will also be supported by a shaft with two bearings on it.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DrumsCloseup.jpg

[9W Monighan]

This should steer you in the right direction.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5203/22b5.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9748/22b6.jpg
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6631/22b4.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8323/22b3.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3584/22b21.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9895/22b22.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5784/scan00042m.jpg
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4306/scan0004eo.jpg
Not sure if I have the correct rigging for the boom.
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9596/scan0007mu.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7540/scan0008t.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6044/scan0011l.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2051/scan0012s.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5765/scan0009is.jpg
There are several fairlead arrangements. This one looks cool because of the side rollers.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5857/scan0010x.jpg

[JensR]

I think that converted servos are really useful and they are basically nothing else than gear motors in a different form factor and packaging anyway?
As long as their gear ratio matches the application - if not then gear motors usually offer a wider range of gear ratios.

I'd love to buy a gear motor with comparable power and double ball bearings that does not cost an arm and a leg. I'd be honestly interested, as I couldn't find one and went with the popular RB35. But these motors only have bushings and these do not take radial loads well, in my experience.

Looks like a great project and the drawings Steve posted are fantastic!

[D8R]

Here´s the front of my friend 22-RB´s
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af270/gulalastbilen/DSC_0163.jpg

The boom is made of L-profile, maybee this was unique to machines built in England
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af270/gulalastbilen/DSC_0153.jpg
Dan

[dirtpusher9]

Always nice to see the scratch builds and this one will be another good one. Don't forget lots of pics.

[Jared]

Wow!!!! Thank you so much, Steve and Dan! Steve, you just saved me $60 on a manual I was looking at. I'm not sure how I can repay the favors, but if I see something I can help with, I'll make extra sure I will!

[rustybucket]

Hi Jared, Welcome to the elite 'Cable Digger Builders' club :cool:. We are few in number but we are growing. I knew that machine well. I built them in the erecting shops in Lincoln 50 years ago. One of the classiest excavators ever built. :)

[Papy]

Another Bucyrus on this forum !!! great idea ! Congrat's for the CAD design : this will allow you to build it faster ;)

I know an old man in my area that has at least 2 of them in perfect condition, including lattice boom/shovel/backhoe equipments.....too bad the guy is over 80 and his son is just waiting he's gone to scrap all this old iron :(

[Jared]

Thanks rustybucket. I for some reason I've always been fascinated with the old cable machines. I run modern excavators but I find the old stuff more interesting.

Thanks Papy. That's the story everywhere. I know of some guys that had a 15 or 22B. Notice my use of the word "had". A few years ago when scrap prices were really high, they fired it up, walked it on the lowboy and hauled it to the scrapyard. If I had known about it at the time, I might have offered them scrap value for it. I don't know what I would have done with it, but I hate to see good stuff like that thrown away.

Breaking news: Instead of a 22B, this has evolved into a 25B. Part of the reason is that the 25 is basically a beefed-up 22 and has a 1-yard rating instead of 3/4 and all I have to do is make 8 hook rollers instead of 6. But the main reason for doing it is so I can put a bigger bucket on it. I spent a bunch of time with the drawings Steve and Dan sent along with some old sales brochures and spec sheets I ordered and did a bunch more tweaking and adjusting of my drawings and here is the latest iteration, but not necessarily the last.
I'd change the thread title if I knew how (hint hint).

Hoping tomorrow to get out in the garage and make chips.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/FinalAssyCapture.jpg

[tc1cat]

Changed the title for you.

[9W Monighan]

Here is what I have for the 25B. I don't have a parts book but I have a few operators and service manuals. They do contain a nice drawing of the carbody though. Hope this helps with the drawing tweaking.
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1492/dscn1274k.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4403/dscn1273i.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2484/dscn1272u.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/576/dscn1271o.jpg

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/6229/dscn1270to.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6848/dscn1269t.jpg

[Jared]

Much appreciated, tc1cat.

Thanks Steve. There was a bit more info I was able to glean from those drawings. I'm finally starting to feel like the drawing is done and now all that's left is the actual building. It seems like with all the time I have into this so far the building will be the fast part ;), but I know better than that.

Got the fairlead pretty well nailed down.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/FinalAssy3.jpg

[Jared]

Today I got the track frames 75% completed. The one I made earlier I had to remake because I changed it so it was 1/8" longer and .100" shorter in height. I didn't get any pictures of making them but I clamped them in the vice side-by-side and then when it was time to turn them over I put some little C-clamps on then turned them twice without disturbing the alignment. The first frame I made a few weeks ago took me about 5 hours to do. Doing these two together took 7 and I still have another hour or so to go, but still faster than making them separately. Managed to break off a 2-56 tap in a hole but I should be able to cook it out with a home brew solution I found on another forum. I can't remember the recipe but I think it uses alum.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00312.jpg

[Jared]

Almost finished with the carbody and track frames. This week I was working close enough to home to get a couple hours in the evenings. Sure is nice!

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00336.jpg

Hopefully those screw heads will be a little less conspicuous when everything gets painted. That's the best and easiest way I came up with to hold the track frames on the dead axles.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00340.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00337.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00338.jpg

[Jared]

Jigs. I love 'em and I don't like making them. But often they're the only way to go. I made the track roller shafts the other day.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00344.jpg

Next time I'll make the stop on the left side of the jig the same height as the flats on the shaft. That way they'll be easier to square up when I drill the holes.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00346.jpg

And a batch of more or less identical shafts.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00347.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00367.jpg

And I got started on the machinery deck. Kind of goofed up on it though. I got ahead of myself and milled the recess for the servo on the wrong side. But since everything is symmetrical I can flip it over and countersink the holes on the other side. Those are the bolt holes for the side frames for the machinery.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00368.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00369.jpg

[kerst]

Looks good!

[Espeefan]

Very cool build! I appreciate the photos of the stuff that goes on behing the scenes. Often times we just see machined parts in a complete state, and think nothing of it, but to see the fixtures and drawings is pretty neat. I'm always curious to know what kind of mill guys have. Whatchya got?

[Jared]

Thanks guys!

Nathan, I've got a Clausing 8530 mill. It's a pretty nice little machine. Only thing I wish was different about it is it would be nice to have more Y-axis, but other than that it's been able to do what I've wanted it to do.

A little progress over the weekend was the center bearing/slip ring mount or whatever you want to call it. There will be a hollow "pin" that will poke down through the machinery deck and into the bearing and keep everything centered. At least that's the plan, assuming my machining skills are up to it. We shall see. The other unknown is if this little slip ring is up to running mini-servos for the tracks. If it gets fried I might have to build one.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00372.jpg

[androiduk]

Nice looking build Jared , there used to be a TV show called Salvage Squad in the UK they restored a 10RB on one of there shows might be worth having a look on Youtube to see if its there might have a few bits worth a look at.

Good luck hope the build goes ok.

Andy

[9W Monighan]

Thanks guys!

The other unknown is if this little slip ring is up to running mini-servos for the tracks. If it gets fried I might have to build one.



I was worried about my slip ring on my drag so I put one in that will handle 10 amp per circuit. Now I know my current draw for the whole machine while under a load: (1.5 amp @90VDC)
I could replace it with another twin that I have that has more circuits. With more circuits I can eliminate my radio all together and hard wire the machine to my master switches from the 1:1 machine.

[Jared]

My slip ring had a sticker on it that said "2 amps" but didn't say anything about at what voltage. I got it off ebay from someone catering to the home windmill power generation folks, whatever voltage windmills put out. If it doesn't work I have a bit of room to replace it with something bigger.

Latest progress is the swing circle. All that's left on it is to get the shaper running and cut gear teeth.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00373.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00374.jpg

I was very happy with how everything bolted together. The swing circle locates the slip ring mount and both bolt to the carbody and it worked! Rotary tables are neat.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00375.jpg

I decided to get started on track rollers. Had time for two tonight.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n494/JaredVik/Models/DSC00376.jpg

[9W Monighan]

Now that carbody is showing some heft. What does it weigh now? Steel and brass really look nice together don't they.

[modelman]

Great work-it's coming along nicely. On the slip ring I don't think voltage matters. You just cannot exceed -2-amps per wire. If you have extra wires you could use-2-wires per circuit and have-4-amps if needed. Looking forward to seeing more.

[Jared]

Thanks, guys!

Steve, according to Alibre, the three parts together are 1.045 lbs if I made them exactly like they're drawn.

Tom, My slip ring has 6 circuits and my plan is to crimp servo plugs to them so I can make it "plug and play".
I'm looking forward to seeing more myself!

[RCKiwi]

That's some nice solid machining work there my friend and good progress too!
I like the machining/drilling jig :cool:
Glenn

[modelman]

Hi Jared-anything going on with this model? I see it 's been a few years since you posted. I enjoy these older machine models. How about some updated pictures.

[Rvjimd]

Tom,

Glad you bumped this thread up, I had not seen this one yet. I may have to steal some of the info for current and future projects. I would love to scratch something like the 22B in the near future.

And, ya, lets see some current info and pics on this build please. Don't tell us it has stalled...:o

Jim

[Jared]

Thanks guys. I hate to say it but yes it has stalled, but not due to lack of interest. I moved a couple years ago and no longer have a place for my tools so they are in storage. I keep thinking about how fun it will be to get the project going again but I don't know how long that will be. I still have all my drawings and haven't changed anything so it shouldn't be any trouble to pick up where I left off.

Steal away, Jim. That's what I do.

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

Couple of questions for you.

On the spring tension tag line, does it have any difficulty with changes in boom angle? I have done mine with a counter weight and I look at the spring version thinking it would hide the counter weight. But, I see LOT of movement in the counter weight when I boom up or down as the bucket moves further or closer to the boom.

And, I don't know how I missed the sand box clamshell video... That clam works GREAT! Did it work that good right off the bench? Did you have adjustments to make to it? I may take a second look at mine, maybe create another. I tend to use my drag bucket just because it works so much better than my clam. Hope you can find time to get back on the new crane project.

Thanks,

Jim

[Jared]

Wrong thread, Jim, but that's ok. The tagline is led out through the front of the machine down near the boom pins and then up to a sheave so nothing really changes with the boom angle. I had to monkey with the spring geometry trying different tension and pivot points on the lever. I'm still not completely satisfied with it but it's good enough.

It's been long enough that I can't remember for sure, but I think the bucket required adding weight to it. I had to use thicker material for the bottoms and add weight to the center bar to get it to open reliably. That sand is pretty fine so pretty much anything works in it. It's volcanic ash from Mt St Helens when it erupted in 1980. The same stuff the gift shops sell a 1/2 oz vial for 10 bucks and the sand pits sell for 2 bucks a yard.

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

As a newbie machinist I have to ask. How or why did you decide to make the side frames from a single chunk of aluminum instead of starting with to pieces of bar stock and then bolting them together with spacers? It looks like a lot of milling to remove all that material in the middle? I have the same question about the center part? I was going to try an make the center from a 1/4" plate and then add "side skirts" to make the upside down box.

I made some of the sides using channel, but I think I'm going to redo them using two part of bar stock and spacers and then I can do rollers as you did.

Thanks again for the thread! I refer to it as I am working on mine.



Jim

[Jared]

Jim, the main reason I did it this way is because I have a mill and I wanted to play with it:D. Another reason is because it's easier to 3D model one part instead of having to draw and assemble multiple parts on the computer. With a built-up design, it could be a little harder to keep the inside and outside pieces aligned with each other if a bolt hole is just a little off. Although I suppose you could bolt the pieces together and then do all the machine work on them after. I would design a little fudge factor into the overall dimensions of the rough parts so they could be squared up with the mill after they were assembled if need be.

Actually, milling out the center was the easiest part. The outsides took the longest.

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

Thanks, that all makes sense to me now!

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

One more question for you. Was there any specific reason for using brass and steel for the lower rollers? I am about to start making those parts and not sure what to use or why. In think I can see using steel for the shafts but I was going to use aluminum for the rollers as well as the drivers and big rollers. I think the aluminum is cheaper than brass but I'm not sure, I do know I have more aluminum stock on hand than I do brass.

If I get a but more done here I guess I could start a build thread of my own?

I sure would like to see you get back on yours!

Thanks

Jim

[Jared]

I used stainless rod that was somewhat polished to have a smooth shaft that wouldn't corrode in our humid winter climate and brass because I hadn't turned it much and wanted to play with it. I think next time I would use acetal (Delrin) for the rollers because it's self-lubricating and real easy to machine. Aluminum is certainly cheaper than brass and I think it would work just fine. It will wear out sooner since it's softer but unless you're planning on putting a serious amount of hours on it there shouldn't be much trouble. The main thing is to use a shaft material that is harder than the bearing material so you don't wear out the shaft since generally speaking bearings (or bushings) are cheaper and easier to replace. Using the same material for both isn't a good idea. Looking forward to seeing yours and don't be afraid to start a thread.

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

Thanks for all the answers! And, thanks to Steve as well for the pictues of the BE, I have been using the drawings in my build. I have a pretty good start and made some design decisions yesterday so I think I am ready to start producing track pads.

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

When you made the axels for the rollers did how did you insure the second end was in the same plane as the first when you milled the second end? Same question I guess when you drilled them?

Thanks,

Jim

[Jared]

Have a look on the second page at post #27. You can see the fixture I made to hold them so I could mill and drill both sides. I milled the flats on all the parts first and then drilled the holes so I wouldn't have to be swapping endmills and drill bits twice every part. This way all you have to do is remember your settings on your dials to come back to for repeatability. When you mill the flats lock the Z-axis and don't move it so each shaft is at the same height when you bolt them to the side frame.

[Rvjimd]

Jared,

Thanks! I am learning how important it can be to recognize how the order you do things impacts the production of parts.

Jim