1:50 Dragline

[Rvjimd]

Just a quick video of my new dragline. It is a 1:50 Menck M251 that will likely spend most of its time about where the video was shot. I think I will put a sand pile behind the wall and use the crane to load barges.

Has anyone got any tips motorizing something this small? Does NOT need to be RC, and if it works out the motors could be remoted using a cable drive of some sort.

http://youtu.be/uGDkN3aCH8Q

Worst case scenario, it is going to look good just sitting there as a barge pulls up to the wall!

HEEYYY, it is supposed to get near 60 degrees F today and getting better! YYYAYAAAAAA!

Jim

Jim

[Jared]

Hi, Jim,

You could modificate servos for continuous rotation and that gives you a speed control and gearmotor in one compact package that can be plugged directly into the receiver. Or mount your winches underneath a platform that the machine sits on and run the cables up through the center of the swing circle. Just have to remember not to swing too much and get them twisted up. The hard part in either case might be the swing.

I think your pond is pretty neat, especially the locks! I'd like to do that same sort of thing someday but the problem is it would be full of ducks, nutria, muskrats and labrador retrievers. Sounds like your tug has Jimmies in it.

[Stuff]

360 degree robotics servos, receiver, 4AA battery pack in there somewhere.

[Rvjimd]

I finally around to rigging the crane yesterday. Took the cab off so I could easily get to the three winding drums. Could not tell exactly how the brake on each drum worked but they work good enough to make me think they would need to be disabled and the servos would need to provide that function. Also, there is not a lot of room in there.

Jim

[Seilbagger]

Hi Jim,

welcome to the Menck community.

To move the drums, i think the construction of SmallHauls unit cable crane will be a very good possibility for this scale.

Best Regards
Wolfgang

[Rvjimd]

Finally got a bit more done on the hopper barge and the crane is sitting on two flat tops all tied to the sea wall. I have some video of the tow moving the crane, but can't get it from my SD camera card onto the iPad for upload.

http://youtu.be/hH-ftQtlKSU

Jim

[FlyingBeagle]

Wow, just finished watching your videos. I love your pond setup and the lock is so cool. I cant wait to see it when your out there dredging gravel from the bottom and stockpiling it in the barge. Again I am very impressed, thanks for sharing.

Also sorry I dont have anything to add to the purpose of your thread, the conversion of the crane, but there are a number of 1/50 crane conversions that can be found on the internet, especially in some of the german forums. I use google chrome to browse them, it does a decent job of translating.

[Rvjimd]

More Progress...

I went to the hobby shop and bought two mini servos and successfully modified one to turn continuously! Ya, I was afraid I would end up with a inert hunk of plastic.

I cobbled up a piece of brass square stock and a wheel collar and got it to turn the hoist drum at a very pleasing speed going direct drive from the servo to the shaft of the drum! So, tomorrow I'm going to see if there is actually going to be room for two or maybe three servos and a battery and RX inside the cab.

I have also been playing with the idea of running a pulley system instead of direct drive. Got to think on both options and see how it goes...

Should be cool if this comes together

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Not sure why I didn't put this thread into the diecast conversion section?

If someone can/wants to move it I guess that would be appropriate, it is definately turning into a conversion!

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/129aec0d2d29ddd558cb19fc211810f9_zpscea03c03.jpg

Jim

[Rvjimd]

I cant believe how good this has turned out! I am going to have just enough room inside the cab for the batt, RX and ESC. :cool:

I really have got to figure out how to slew it! Stay tuned!

http://youtu.be/d69MPI4AerM

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Here is a bit more video! Sort of comical at the end, "how the heck do ya run the goofy thing again?"

http://youtu.be/mX2XQnqcviw

What FUN! :p

Ya think I will ever stop playing with it long enough to finish the conversion?

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I really admire you for taking on a project this small. Having built a few complicated models that were medium in size but they were giants compared to this one. I have really bad eyesight and I promised myself that I would never take on another "small" build. Just a suggestion for the slewing gear. You need a large gear under the base of the model and I think a servo like you are using will work to turn it but it needs to be slow if possible. They make plastic gears for helicopters I think in the 3"-5" range and that could possibly work. Most draglines and big shovels use a gear almost as big as the house. They also make matching pinion gears that you probably could adapt to your servo. Keep at it and post lots of pictures and good luck.

[Rvjimd]

Model man,

Thanks for the comment. I'm with you on the eyesight! Here is a shot of the bench with a lighted mag viewer! I have three of those suckers at each one of me hobby/shop areas!

In the other pic you can se e the cast slew ring. I'm going to try exactly what you suggest, using a rubber wheel on a servo to drive up against the ring. Hard part will be finding space in the cab for the servo, in the right spot!

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/fba1928c8d2170e7cbb6c0d7a59da8da_zps5eff9d50.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/cb5ca15e6de96af0d5c05293504e9cae_zpsd1040cb3.jpg

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Here are the pictures of today's progress. Disassembly and took the hoist and drag drums out of the carrier bracket. Drilled thru the hubs and screwed thru and into the servo.

Gonna have to edit this after I get the pics moved... Stand by...

[Rvjimd]

Okay, here are the pics...

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/7a1cc39a76bf1bf8eeabe51bef7a6488_zpse4201991.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/63bc28dde430e81e7e72c0a42f02b837_zps7d3d1c7f.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/4b21bc894d5b203f721b83e1506c709b_zpsdfd4b068.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/c6fa78f49249f58d1e7f1146a57194cb_zpsb1247c40.jpg


http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/bcb6fd5da4a3d437ba8321c77451ebe8_zpsf5ed9296.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/1e67699919029480e8ca2319c5740089_zps58ba33d5.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/de9c198f86f1aba8c8656d5aabd9318e_zps9d5a35ff.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/da0b9001cc764dcf30ea1866f360d369_zps7062589f.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/b425483686c1eb81c8cbac00f3e5961f_zps019a6706.jpg
Had to notch the drum frame to allow inserting the drums back into the frame after screwing the servo to the drums.

The shaft with the small pinion gear is to become the drive gear running against the ring gear.

I'm loving this, hope you guys enjoy it half as much as I am.

I hope to have it back together and running three channels by tomorrow afternoon!

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-you are making good progress. Wow-this thing is tiny! The pic of the magnified light gives a great size comparison. I could not see which servo you are using but I think mini-servos would fit inside the house but I don't know if they are strong enough to hoist and drag.Could you please post a close up picture of the tracks and drive sprocket. This looks like a well built model so would you mind saying where you got it.

[Rvjimd]

MM, the model is made by NZG, a German company. They are one of the big diecast makers. I got it locally at a dealer that carries mostly ag farm equipment. Ther drive and pads are cast and steel parts. I have actually been thinking about driving the tracks parallel off of the single axel.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/f75df5ac3fe8d7c5ba68fc81ea5e25a7_zps6ffe6d7b.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/017222f5dedbede3a6ad1f0c9ca3917f_zps57c6b855.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/28cf1339427ac8fe489f7ca329337877_zpsb405448b.jpg


Jim

[Rvjimd]

First, thanks for all the comments and help!

I got the third channel working today! I think I may have had something pressing on the servo when I put the cab back on, because the pinion gear did not line up as good as it had when I originally fit it.:p

And, it is colder that CRAP here in iowa today and SNOWING! We are setting records for late year snow accumulation, man I am sick of winter! So, I did not take any video on the loading wall.:o. And, my brief testing with the pinion not lined up quite right caused a bit of binding and the shaft unscrewed from the servo. I'll be taking it apart to fix that so, if you are still reading....

Is it more common to use a big long chain around the slew ring gear and drive the chain with a pinion, or like my initial attempt of driving the ring gear directly with the pinion?

If I can figure out how to keep an o-ring on the slew chain ring it seems like that might work better? I have a perfect pinion pulley that would work good on the servo, front wheel from a slot car is actually an o ring tire on the rim with a set screw for the shaft! I would just need to fit or modify the ring gear with a grooved slot or ring.

Jim

[MattDk]

Hi

I'm new here, and the list of things that I want to make just got one item longer.

With regards to the servos Modelman might be right that you might find a servo that is smaller, that would not stick out, but I got another idea that might solve the problem, let me see if I can describe it in text.

If you took the servos and moved them to the back og the plastic that holds the "wire" and lay them down on top of each other, (if there is room) then they can stick out on each side, and you could make a pulley that goes from the servo to each cable drum. Te system could be made of string, and a positive side effect would be, that when you reach the very end, the string would just slip on the pulley setup, not damaging your servo.

Might work2713


Good luck with your build, looking forward to see the end result

Mario

[modelman]

Rvjimd-The standard way is to let the pinion gear run against the swing gear. However I understand you have to do what you can with the room you have. On the pictures you posted,I cannot see what is what.(eyes):eek: Are the servos in the model mini servos? Also I cannot see the detail of the drive sprocket but that is okay. Just keep doing what you are doing and I think you will have an operating model soon.

[Rvjimd]

MM,

the servos I'm using are labeled as micro servos. The way I have it now, the pinion is running against the ring gear. The only trouble I have is that the ring gear is cast as part of the lower track unit and was never designed to be functional, but the teeth seem to match fairly well with the pinion I'm using. My trouble is getting a good fit to hold the pinion in place. I think i can get it, just wondering if a elastic o ring might reduce the tolerance needed with my current method?

Thought I was going to be filming a test by now but still a few bugs to work out.

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Well, I did manage to get one video of the dragline as I tested out the slew function. I was having trouble with the gear mesh of the pinion and ring gear and you see me help it where the mesh is too loose.

Also the drag servo drum loosened up so I got that to look at this weekend.

http://youtu.be/XH6KNlpnH_c

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I can see in the picture that the ring gear is not a precision gear and with it cast directly against the lower body that will cause a small problem. Is the ring gear out of round or is the problem holding the pinion in position. The O-ring idea could work but everything will have to be perfectly round and true to keep equal pressure on the gears for 360 degree swing. Keep working at it. I think you have done a great job in a short amount of time. Also I think making the tracks work is a great idea. To have all functions working on a model this small is quite an accomplishment.

[Rvjimd]

Made some really nice progress today on the dragline! I machined down another pinion gear, went up one tooth to 19T to take up some slack in the mesh. I also pinched down the sleeve that the drive shaft runs in to take out some slop. This has completely smoothed out the slewing.

Rewired the battery and plug in socket so I can plug into the RX or unplug and use an adapter to charge. So I won't need to remove the battery for charging. I may still remove it and put back the balance plug that I removed.

The BIG thing I did today to improve operation was went to the hobby shop and bought a new DX6i and a small 4ch RX. The 4ch RX fits really nice in the cab!

I tried the two sticks up and down (throttle and elevator) but was not happy with the throttle stick. There does not seem to be any rate control or centering on the throttle stick.:o. So, I changed the drag drum to use the rudder channel instead. That way I get centering and can slow down the rate! Sure wish they had rate control on the throttle like all the other channels!

It is supposed to be a bit nicer here Sunday so stand by for some outside video! I practiced on the indoor dirt pile and thought I was doing pretty good work. Can't wait to get outside tomorrow! Gona have to find some material to load!

Here is a picture of the backyard yesterday! The snow did finally melt today from all the rain!

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/f44451316f3cb1a96a05717519133a07_zps4c7a5cec.jpg

Jim

[Rvjimd]

I still had bit to much slop in the mesh of the pinion and ring gear so took some pics and video of the fancy turning machine I use for this sort of thing. It is not exactly a computer controlled mill, but you get the idea...

Finished gear after turning down

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/33e303cba9b6e9b4907e01fb50f8a191_zps22cfbbec.jpg

Installed on the crane
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/1824c1e97a11de5791db63eb890a8b2e_zpsdcd89976.jpg

With the track assembly in place
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/d9345a88c093dd4a9189a51503106671_zps9175f09f.jpg

And the video of the turning process
http://youtu.be/7-lkVaW3V-I

And the ops test video
http://youtu.be/CSAW4rwGt5M

Loading barge video to follow...

Jim

[Seilbagger]

Hi Jim,

good idea, well done


Wolfgang

[Rvjimd]

Here is the vid of the Menck dragline loading sand onto a hopper barge at the sea wall. Got it working pretty good with the new DX6i.

http://youtu.be/nRH95IXRhQ0

Jim

[SmallHaul]

That is a sharp little crane you rc'd there. Nice work!

i keep looking at 1/48 dozer and cranes to rc. Have you thought of doing a dozer?

The pond is very cool too.

[Rvjimd]

Ya, I am really itching to do a dozer, and a dump truck. Th is is my first conversion of any kind and now they way the crane is working i fell like, no problem... Lets find a few more!:p

Jim

[Seilbagger]

Hi Jim,

this is a very very good conversion, perfect done.

Its only one little mistake: This is not a M251, its a M260. The difference: M251 has 4 roles on each side for driving, M260 five

For all interested Menck fans, the HP of the Menck archive: http://www.menckundhambrockarchiv.de/ , you can read this in german or english

[Rvjimd]

That is some interesting info. I find a lot of different model numbers when I search on Menck cranes! I wonder why NZG calls it a 251? I'm pretty sure that is the model number on the box...

Thanks for the comments!

Jim

[MattDk]

Really good progress that you have made.

Btw, for getting the tracks moving, I saw a video where someone used a jack connector for transferring the signal and power for the servos for the track, through the center, that was pretty smart, you might find room for a mini jack, you only need 4 wires, ground power and 2 signal, so that would be perfect match.
2724

/Mario

[Jared]

That's great Jim! Ya done good. Certainly sunk the barge down a little. Now you just need another crane with a clam on the other end of the canal to unload it with.

[Rvjimd]

Jared, ya I noticed the barge sink a bit when I watched the video! So, I watched it fast forward, kind of fun watching it sink in as it gets a load!

Mario or anyone, re the video of the phone jack for the slew connection. Do you have a link for me? I want to study this a bit more. I might try to get that done but I'm not sure how to do it. On my crane a single small machine screw goes up from the bottom directly into the center underneath side of the cab. I am guessing I would need to somehow tap this on the outside of that fitting to allow the phone jack to reside in the center hole where the screw is currently?:confused:

Jim

[Finster]

Not sure if this is the exact clip they had in mind, but I know this guy used an audio jack as a slip ring for a Bruder mini excavator conversion. Good job on your conversion so far. Hope this helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNd_DcxEh9c

[Rvjimd]

Finster,

Thanks, i did finally find that one a few minutes back. I helps, but I'm still scratching my head a bit. I think I need to study some of the bigger machines to get a better idea, then figure out how I can do it small scale.

Nice thing, if I get this thing moving, I'm planning on a single drive servo on the solid axel. That will require a bit less complexity.

Jim

[MattDk]

Yes that was the video I was referring to.

Here you can find one optionhttp://www.magomhrc.com/en/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=Ring&submit_search=Search (http://www.magomhrc.com/en/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=Ring&submit_search=Search)

Another way is this http://www.adafruit.com/products/736

If the mini jack were to work you might have to skip the screw in the middle and just hope the mini jack will keep everything in place.

Doing two servos will not make it that more advanced, it is actually only one more wire, since you share power and ground, between both servos.
You could choose to put the servos in each end instead of next to each other.

If you cut the connector between both sides of the wheels and keep just enough metal to put something like a pinio gear without the gear "cant remember what it is called" to keep the wheel in place. Then you can mount the servos at each end.

I can't figure out how much space you have in the undercarriage, but I have converted a normal servo into driving one of these motors instead, http://www.goodluckbuy.com/micro-dc-geared-motor-metal-gear-6v-1-100.html they don't make as much noise as a normal servo.
The conversion is quite easy, I just can't find the link that I followed.
I would also say that if you have the space inside the cabin to use this kind of motor instead, you could have a very powerful low noise setup.

/Mario

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I think you got! It looks good to me. Enjoyed the video loading the barge. As I said before-Great Job!!

[Rvjimd]

I like the barges that are half loaded, sitting all out of wack, high on one end and about to sink the loaded end...

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/4bd0b520867a9df929814392cb04fe90_zpsa2511da2.jpg

Real quick video of two more scoops, the last one sends water over the lower corner.

http://youtu.be/rMwlLP2CIX4

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Got started on motorizing the tracks on the crane. Going to see how far it can rotate using the kidney shaped holes in the base and cab. I have not yet figured out how to secure the top to the base without the center screw. Not enough stub poking down onto the base for threads, or I would be all over that, using a audio plug in the screw hole.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/901108e9a022227c6c042d1657e2ce61_zps81fc8452.jpg

Crown gear and pinion on shaft of the drive servo. Drilled out the hole in the frame and bushed it with 1/8" brass to make a better fit for the axel shaft.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/9d65a15a5265f1152c85d4cd9cc2457c_zps03bcfa01.jpg

Switch to a smaller crown, and added a lock nut as a jam nut on the threaded rod, up against the spline of the servo.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/a4e28bce6c5f5f83820a27488a930db9_zpsff7f5cd7.jpg

I'm going to try the single servo and drive parallel and see how that works first. I have started the second servo setup, but I will need to cut the shaft on the other end as well to isolate the left from right.

Jim

[SmallHaul]

Jim,

i did a quick search for 1/48 rc tanks to find a gearbox for you and found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACADEMY-1-48-JAPAN-TYPE-90-MOTORIZED-TANK-2CH-RC-13305-/321104402526?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item4ac350585e

RC tanks are such a large hobby segment that you could probably find a tiny twin motor metal gearbox in 1/48 too for your dozer.

[Rvjimd]

Great minds must think alike. A buddy of mine that does RC airplanes and slot cars and 1/18 scale sprint cars with me said the same thing. "You need to find a small motorized tank and use the base from that for your crane" :p

I already feel like a cheater by simply converting a diecast, instead of scratching it like the rest of you guys! :o

That dozer I bought is gona be tough though, boy is it small. I may look for a D11, there has got to be more space to work with in the high drive model.

Jim

[SmallHaul]

The Acadamy tank gearbox looks to be well made.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355256

Your idea of using a slot.it crown gear and a shaft off the servo is clever.

[Rvjimd]

Well, I got it going, what a project... Lot of little details that seem like they took all day to iron out, oh wait, it DID take all day!

Don't remember if I posted this one, this was the FIRST location of the servo.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/a4e28bce6c5f5f83820a27488a930db9_zpsff7f5cd7.jpg

I wasn't happy with that spot. It hid the center mounting screw and was in the way for other reasons.

So, I moved it back to where the potential second servo was going to go.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/256626998219973a64227d1da13ab00a_zps4d2c6de5.jpg

Here is a shot of the center hole mod to allow the wire up the center instead of my initial plan of the kidney holes. Had to drill the center of a 8-24 rod and then drill and tap the center hole on the crane body. Won't be able to spin but good enough, just need to keep the revs down to about 1 each way. There was no way an audio jack was going to fit, I bought some 1/8 sets at radio shack and it just was to tight to get that to work.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/a891e33d65ab2b4a3a40f2af2cedda3d_zps14eeba66.jpg

And here is a short bench test. I had it on the loading wall, but it got cold an rainy again so no job site video today.

http://youtu.be/2osu07_ULxg

Jim

[Stuff]

wow progress!

[Rvjimd]

Hopefully the weather will be nice tomorrow and I can get some descent video back out at the canal loading wall, with a bit of walking up and down the length of the wall while loading another barge.

Jim

[Seilbagger]

Hi Jim,

very well done. For me this is to small, i would have problems with my big fingers, lol

[Rvjimd]

Even yesterday as I was very close to finishing I thought, "this is too small, what have I gotten myself into?":D

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Here is my latest video...

http://youtu.be/8ewOhLxsRgc

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-nice job on a very tiny model! Every thing seems to be working good and with the kind of loading you are doing from the wall you probably don't need steering on the dragline. I would NEVER try a build like this but I have enjoyed watching it all come together. Nice video too!!

[Rvjimd]

I made a bunch of improvements to the crane so now the servos fit inside the cab. I was even able to put the big gear back in the right hand side that shows thru the door. I was having some issues with the plastic a frame structure that held the drums and the slewing servo came loose from the shaft, I figured while I was in there I would do a refit. Can't really see any difference from the video perspective but I had to test it out so, might as well film it huh?

http://youtu.be/NcxPRX6O5lY

Jim

[Rvjimd]

I just put up another loading video. This one I edited on the iPad and did a fast forward. It took about thirty minutes to load the flat top with side boards AND the new prototype.

Hope you guys are not sick of my barge loading obsession yet...:o

http://youtu.be/mgIoMDPAq-Q

Jim

[tracksntreadslou]

Great Video ..Looks like some giant Red stergon cruisin the river ..good work on the conversion

[YoungGunz]

Love what you are doing here, really unique! Do you have a "project" planned? I would love to see a project start to finish based around the water. I think some dredging would be really cool too :cool: Jeez, talk about some river monsters :p;)

[Rvjimd]

Ya, all of the gold fish started out life as little tiny feeders that I rescued from the pet store. There are also a bunch of them that were spawned in the pond the first year, so they would be coming up in three years old now.

A few of them are getting pretty big!:eek:

As far as a plan. We had a giant oak tree where the small patio is now at the bottom of the stairs. Well, it decided to come down on the house in a wind storm about four years ago. It smashed the deck, and the house. We had to resurface the deck and decided to add the center stairs and brick patio at the bottom. I said, hey, what about a pond? And if we're doing a pond, how about a river section running under the stairs? Cause if we're gona do that, the river should go in before the stairs. And the plan always included a lock chamber to a lower pool. And the entire project for me was about running tow boats and barges thru the lock?

The sand loading and crane just sort of came along naturally.

I need to find some large grit sand blast sand. I am hoping it will dredge better than the general purpose sand I have. I have tried some dredging, but the material sticks in the bucket when it gets wet. The pea gravel is too big and round and smooth and does not scoop up well.

I have also been studying the screener videos that Joe started. I think that if I could screen the sand I have, some of it might be well suited for part of the operation.

Thanks for the comments!

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I like the changes you made to the dragline. It looks a lot more realistic now especially with the big gear showing thru the door. I notice on your videos you are "tight lining" with this model but with a small machine you can do that. Nice work!

[Rvjimd]

MM,

I'm searching for "tight line" on the web but haven't found a real good description yet. Give me your explanation.

I assume it means the the hoist and drag ropes are never let free to go out or down without brake applied or in gear operation.

I would love to be able to cast the bucket when I dredge but without a complicated clutch system that won't happen. It would be pretty thought to cram that in there, unless someone makes a servo with a clutch built into it.

Thanks for the comment, add to the fun, learning more about stuff like that.

It's fun for me mostly, because my gramps ran a dragline, but I don't remember him too well, he died when I was very young. I can't remember for sure but I think he actually electrocuted himself on the dragline.

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-"tight lining" means carrying the bucket in close to the boom after it is loaded. This action on a real dragline would cause the hoist & drag motors to overheat and severely damage or possibly destroy them. Also remember that they are carrying 100's of tons of dirt with each bucket and this also puts extra stress on the hoist & drag ropes. The correct action is after the bucket is loaded you let out the drag cables until the bucket is swinging freely under the boom-point. Even to the point that you are spilling a little dirt as you swing toward the spoil pile. If done correctly this takes all of the stress off the motors and some off the ropes. If you watch videos of some good operators you can see this is the way they work. After the bucket is loaded they let out the drag cables as far as possible without dumping and then adjust the height of the bucket as they are swinging so they are ready to dump as soon as they reach the pile. It takes a little practice to get all the motions working together but then it is really fun to watch. Also with your ingenuity I think you could make the big gear turn off one of your drums or servos which I think would make the model even more realistic... Have fun!!

[Rvjimd]

MM,

Thanks, very good description. I'll try that, I have been holding the bucket tight just to keep from spilling the material.

Related question for you - is there a perfect length for the tipping line ( is that what the short line is called, going from top of bucket to pulley, to drag rope shackle? I have messed with it about three times trying to figure out what works best. First I made it a bit too long and it would let the bucket tip too early. I have been shortening to get it to hold from tipping. I think when it is too short, the bucket won't hang empty and down properly. Maybe this is not going to come out perfect in such a small scale?

And, about the big gear. From the videos I have watched of full scales, I was under the impression that the big gear turns the same way ALL the time? Or does it reverse direction based on rope direction of the hoist?

I could probably drive the gear from an aux servo and not connect it to anything. It would look VERY COOL if that thing was turning!

[Rvjimd]

MM,

One more question/comment...

I have seen some 1:1 stuff operated as you describe and they really get that bucket swinging! Espically if they are dredging. Is the counterweight matched to the anticipated load, or force involved when they cast the bucket?

I will never be able to get that sort of moves out of my little model just due to the lack of momentum. I don't even think I could get that "look" if I used some slow motion tricks with the video.:o

Thanks again. I enjoy learning more about all this stuff.

Jim

[FlyingBeagle]

As I have said previously, I am very impressed by your entire setup, the pond, lock, and equipment conversion are awesome.

I have a coupe of questions? Have you thought about building barges out of something other than 2X6 lumber so that they are hollow and can hold more material? Also can you tell much of a difference on the tug when pushing empty barges compared to full barges? Just curious, Thanks again for sharing.

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I wasn't sure if you were interested in this but myself I like to learn about other things. On the drag rope lengths, I think you are doing the right thing by experimenting. Most machines especially models are different. As you have seen the drag ropes affect the way the bucket dumps and carries. I think the correct position for the bucket to carry is with it slightly tilted back when hanging under the boom point but this is hard to achieve on a model because of the lack of weight. Just work with this and get it the way you like and the way it operates the best. Also adding weight to the bucket is good if it makes it work better and if your servos have the strength. On the big gear I think you are correct. They are used on smaller machines and I believe they act as flywheels to keep things running smoothly.You could possibly use a small electric motor to run this gear slowly and continuosly and it would look really good but I'm sure you can work this out. As far as casting I think only some small machines can do that and they must be equipped with clutches and brakes. Where you are working it looks like your boom is long enough so you probably don't need this. Watch this video and you can see that the bucket is almost dumping as he is swinging-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GX481pFhE8

[Rvjimd]

FB,

Thanks for the compliment and questions!

I actually ripped down the most recent solid 2x6 barge into approx 1/8 slabs and built it up with that. That is the second one in the high speed video. I like the way it works and I just need to decide if I want to make three more the same way. I also plan to finish it out by adding a hollow section around the perimeter by adding false walls around the sides and putting a walkway on that. It would look very similar to the rust color one but it would be an actual hopper. I am in the shop now, and my intention today was to finalize the material and start on three more, but so far all I have done is clean, put stuff away and hang a new light over an unused bench. I'm sure ill get to the barge building process this afternoon! My short term goal with the barges is to have four that look good so I can have a full tow to push thru the lock chamber. Actually six might be a full tow, but there is not enough room on any one of the ponds to do much with that big a tow load.:o

When I started out with the barge and tow boat thing I knew I wanted a LOT of mass to push so the tow and barges reacted more realistic. It was also VERY easy to test the prototype since all I had to do was cut some 2x6 to length.:cool:

You can tell the difference with a loaded barge, empty and empty hopper. The motor in my tow is a Carrera 1/32 slot car motor. I actually used the entire rear end/motor pod from the car which included the axel, crown gear and motor with pinion.

Here is a pic of the setup. I was hoping for an under powered setup to help out with realism, I don't like stuff that looks way overpowered compared to its real life counterpart.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/0ef5187e3f56a20af8503e63bf4aeb9c_zps55610672.jpg

I scratch built the entire boat except for using the drive train from the slot car. Cut the four blade prop from brass stock, and made the stuffing tube and driveshaft from brass rod.

Thanks

Jim

[Rvjimd]

MM,

We are definitely on the same page. I enjoy the hobby because I like looking at it from the perspective of the real thing. I imagine how it would look and operate if it were found someplace for real.

The very first thing I noticed in the video is the double bridal. I might give that a try. Not sure if my bucket is quite the correct scale for that setup, but I think it would let it pivot more freely. It hangs up on the chains on the side of the bucket frequently.

I notice he never sets the bucket down completely as he starts bringing it in, is that to keep some tension on the hoist, or the way he is trying to get only material from the slope and not at the low point?

I've been standing here in the shop watching the rest of that video, reall mesmerizing. Sounds eerie. And looks like they might be on the moon.

I. Going to see if I have room to get another motor in there to turn the flywheel gear. It would look really COOL!:cool:

Thanks for the help!

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-glad to here you are willing to learn and experiment. Draglines will soon be gone in this country and a lot of kids will grow up and never see one operate. The "double bridal"-I'm not sure what you mean unless it is the-2-drag cables coming off the drum. If so, some operators say the machine runs as stable with one cable as the ones with two. I think the smooth movements come from the operators hands and not the machine. As far as the bucket setting down I think each operator uses different techniques and in some cases they are working so far away maybe they cannot see well enough. Here is a great video made by 9W from inside the cab. You can see how far away they are working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Pic7IZO3w&list=UUoqyOWUKqgda1-sjVym4jfg&index=59
On some of the older machines with old controls they are not as responsive as the newer one. Notice on the right hand controller(hoist) how much he is moving the lever back and forth.

[Rvjimd]

That's interesting to watch. I couldn't figure out which was which for a while. Is he running swing with his feet then?

Jim

[modelman]

Yes-some of the newer draglines have all controls on the joy sticks but most of the older ones have swing pedals. I tried to find swing pedals for my dragline but gave up after searching for awhile. They are very hard to find. You really need to know someone who is tearing an old machine down for scrapping and let them get you the pedals.

[Rvjimd]

MM,

what can you tell me about two rope clam shell buckets?

I'm planning on a scratch built or possible another conversion for use as a barge unloader.

At first I thought, simple huh? But if the hoist is lifting the bucket how is the second rope managed so as not to go slack?

Jim

[modelman]

Rvjimd-If you are thinking of another project I guess you are hooked on this great hobby:D. But I'm sorry to say I know nothing about clamshell buckets or rigging. There is a guy on here that goes by "eef" who has an amazing clam shell crane and bucket and he seems to know how and why everything works. I am sure he would answer your questions. Here is a link to his build-
http://www.rctruckandconstruction.com/showthread.php?t=1619
A few pages in there are some good pictures of his clamshell bucket.

[Rvjimd]

Wow, that American Crane is NICE!

[Rvjimd]

I got the big gear in the right side of the cab turning. That's FIVE servos running the crane now. One of them is in the undercarriage.

http://youtu.be/y8jwaB151Gk

Jim

[RCKiwi]

I love seeing that big white gear spinning - gives it some real mechanical scale. Excellent!

[MattDk]

Looking super good.

Do have any close up pictures of your final setup?

/Mario

[Rvjimd]

Thanks for looking guys!

Matt, I don't think I got and pictures, seems like I spend as much time working on the crane as I do loading sand.:p. so, when I have it on the bench again I will get some pictures. It worked out ok, made brass brackets for all the servos and one drum shares a bracket with the large gear servo. Both drums are now attached directly to the servos.

Jim

[Jared]

That's looking real good, Jim, especially with the spinning gear. If you don't like the way the bucket hangs when dumped you can also play with the length of the drag chains. It looks like they may be a little short. I think ideally there would be a little slack in them when the bucket is fully dumped so they don't slam on the arch every time you dump.

Clam buckets are interesting to build since the geometry changes as it closes. When I designed mine I went for simplicity and looked at a lot of pictures to see how different buckets are built. Then before I started cutting metal I made a side view of the bucket and cut the parts out of cereal box cardboard and made a mockup to check the geometry so I could see if there was going to be any binding or interference with anything. I think I had to modify it a couple times before I was happy with it.

[modelman]

Rvjimd-I really like the latest video! That gear turning adds the final touch of realism. I would also like to see how you rearranged the machinery to get everything inside. Great job!! I agree with Jared-your drag chains look to be a little short.

[Rvjimd]

Ya, I plan on putting longer chains on it. The wife doesn't have much stuff like that in her jewelry box or I would have tried it by now. I was watching a few videos and noticed how they hang better with a bit longer chain.

I guess that is where the expression "how's it hangin?" comes from? :p

Jim

[kerst]

Ya, I plan on putting longer chains on it. The wife doesn't have much stuff like that in her jewelry box or I would have tried it by now. I was watching a few videos and noticed how they hang better with a bit longer chain.

I guess that is where the expression "how's it hangin?" comes from? :p

Jim

I found some interesting chains at Amazon. there is quite a bit of choice.
Have a look here:
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-1-1MM-Cable-Chain/dp/B004Y79X1W/ref=pd_ys_sf_s_3367581_b4_6_p
Great project! I also love seeing that big gear wheel turn!

Kerst

[Rvjimd]

Here are a few pictures of the servos inside the cab of my diecast conversion. The last refit included new mounting brackets for drag, house and pivot servos. I was able to stack the hoist and large gear servos in one bracket.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/4a3eacad584d985620b13c599da54dae_zps76d1bcda.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/76b88d11ecedafd8866a1f16ff18c89d_zps75b4bf5e.jpg

The battery sits there in the open spot. I am using a two cell 850 lipo. I had it out in the photo.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/1af6ccbf0dbf7f00b34f19b26f5103de_zps8e2beca9.jpg

I busted off all the control stick during the mod. I saved them and need to glue them back in place
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/834ccdd472e1216118db267be1cba1ac_zps0d4f664f.jpg

The brackets are made from brass stock and I simply used CA to glue the servos to the brackets. I scuffed the servos and brackets and get pretty good adhesion. They can still be popped free for maintenance.
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/e0fb76977f2b0ae9759c5b893bdad1e6_zpsd7ca4646.jpg

Jim

[doodlebug]

Great job Jim! I like it!
Cheer's, Neil.

[MattDk]

Looks awsome, really like that you got everything fitted into the cabin, thanks for sharing.

A project like this might very well be on the winter project list

Mario

[Rvjimd]

I got a prototype clam bucket slapped together. No pulleys yet, haven't decided how to make them yet:confused:

I might have to remake the sides and include a fitting further out for the top tube attach points so it has a bit more advantage.

It might also need an open stop on the hinge point to keep from opening too far.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/698c9cb5ad58fad94aa3839c91075519_zpsfc2baaae.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/2518de81bff7a0acf7dbac84f73acd19_zps62af4b87.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/Slotcarjim/6c228c14dc4b4ff650ac01ee06e02853_zpsfbdcd1c6.jpg

Jim

[modelman]

Your off to a nice start. I do know they run 2-3 part lines on the pulley systems. Once pulleys are installed I think the adjustment of you lines will control the opening. Not sure.

[Rvjimd]

I got the four new hopper barges finished and posted a video. It is all boat and no crane or loading so use your best judgement when deciding to watch it...;)

http://youtu.be/_RNmLntVfGs

Jim

[FlyingBeagle]

The new barges look great, I cant wait to see more videos of them loaded up giving the tug a good workout. I am still very impressed with your back yard and pond. How much maintenance does a pond like that require? I am in the planning phase for my back yard at my new house. I have about 1/2 an acre to deal with and have been considering a water feature, although probably not to the scale of yours.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Rvjimd]

FB,

Thanks. I actually am about to go load all four, and lock ,em thru the chamber. With video of course. I loaded one with the crane yesterday, and then I cheated and dumped sand into the other three, soi could push four loaded around. The new barges empty are much more affected by any breeze blowing them and the tow around. Makes it tricky to steer and put it where you want. And loaded, the tug puts out a nice roller wave behind during my short straight sections at full throttle.

The pond is not too bad to maintain. Over winter is the most trouble. Last year I drained the bottom and south pond and had to put in a temporary dam to hold normal pool in the north pond. Then I had to keep de icer running to keep an open hole so the fish survive.

Then this spring I drained them one at a time and cleaned the muck. It is a dirty job and would have been easier with a bottom drain.

At the end of the day, it is worth it, especially for me running my hauling operation.

The wife loves it!

Jim

[Jared]

Bucket looks good, Jim. I wouldn't worry about an opening stop, the length of the closing line will control that. After you get your sheaves and reeving figured out, you may find you need to add weight to the center pivot to overcome the drag of them and open the bucket. Adding weight to a clam is never a bad thing since it improves digging. I used acetal rod for my sheaves and the stuff works good. You might be able to get creative and use a drill motor like a mini wood turning lathe.

[Rvjimd]

Loading the new sand hoppers and pushing them thru the canal and into the lock chamber. Started to thunder and rain before I got finished.

http://youtu.be/-7S_VfLOgVE

Jim

[modelman]

Your tugboat seems to handle the load pretty good! I noticed the fish following the tug. Is the crew throwing food overboard?:D Nice video!!

[Rvjimd]

Ha, ya, the fish are crazy interested in everything! I get near the water and they are all over it. I suppose they think I'm gona feed em.

The tow ios very fun to operate. It is all about planning, especially with a heavy load. It will just keep going for ever.

It is not really overpowered a bit, which is how I wanted it.

I have fun in the evening watching the videos myself!

Jim

[Rvjimd]

Two pretty short videos. Almost had decided not to use the footage but what the heck.

I finished loading all four sand barges with the crane and conveyor so thought I might as well push them around the pond!:p

http://youtu.be/jFo2MuysyRM

The crane barge is a prototype/work in progress. Wanted to see how it looked in the water with the crane on it. Shoud be a bit wider so it fits tight in the lock chamber, and probably a bit longer would look better. I had just finished pushing the loaded sand barges and my piloting was a bit too fast and overpowered when I tied onto the crane barge.:rolleyes:

http://youtu.be/CkGplYkyBhc

Jim

[Rvjimd]

I am in the middle of a refit/overhaul of the little 1:50 Menck dragline. It was initially setup using micro servos converted to continuous rotation. I was thinking about using micro gear motors and speed controllers but it uses three motors in the house for drag, hoist and swing. There is also a servo in the undercarriage for locomotion.

My question, has anyone used a micro sized motor controller designed for quad copters to control brushed motors?

I'm starting to search for that now, but if someone has already done something along that line it might save me a bit of searching. I would like to use four of the pololu micro gear motors in the house and add boom control.

Jim