Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Hey everybody,

I have been thinking about the barge unloading facility for several weeks now. I'm still in the brainstorming and design phase. I'm sure most of you are aware that I already have a loading dock where I use the Menck dragline and new conveyor to load sand onto hopper barges. I will be constructing a new unloading facility on the lower pond. This new facility will be the unloading and intermediate stock pile for the sand. From this new location I plan to use rail cars to move the sand back up to the starting point where it will be reloaded and start the trip all over again. This will create a circular movement of the product.

I will list some of my thoughts and goals and requirements. Any input will be greatly appreciated. I intend to start construction in the next few days.


Clam shell bucket for grabbing and lifting the sand

Gantry crane with trolley
or possibly a standard style crawler crane

I plan to scratch the entire project, so if I go the standard crane route, I would plan it as a stationary crane with pivoting function, but no travel function. This crane could also be placed on a barge for other duty

Barge positioning using a cable/drum system tied to the barge and a motor on shore to winch the barge up/down the dock as needed during the unloading, so the gantry would not need to move up/down the dock

Unload to a stock pile or possibly directly into rail cars, conveyor may be involved at final stage for stacking or loading rail cars

Eventually could use large bins to store at least some of the product. Keeping it dry and weather proof would be nice. The way it goes now, I cover the sand or even move it into the garage to keep it dry. It does not handle well when wet. It sticks in the drag bucket and clamshell and is about twice the weight.

I like the idea of a gantry, just think it might look good. I would try to make it a lattice style and not a modern look. Same for the crane version.

Any ideas, concerns or whatever, please comment.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=bSMH3SQOsIc

Look at this crain on rails, go to 14:35 . He also has video of it loading a barge in vidio 2 at 5:12

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Here are a few videos I have come across in the past of setups like you are talking about.

Here is a pretty neat barge mounted setup that would be really cool on your pond. He has some other videos of it on his channel as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1RNr3IYPA

Here are some more ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75Duztdnrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUVfiRyjGdE

There is a video of a really well built overhead rail gantry crane setup that I saw in the past on a youtube from a big trucking meet somewhere in Europe. I cant find it now, but it was a nice custom built job that was loading material in and out of big storage bins. If you can find that I think it would make a great setup for off loading barges. You could build piers up out of the pond and mount a rail high up on columns then just build your carriage to run on those rails using train parts.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Can't see how I missed those videos? I'm even subscribed to the first set. And that crane that Martin build is cool!

Thanks for the links!

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

I think FlyingBeagle (sorry don't know your real name) was talking about this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9CqP...p7kI3g-c4I5fV4
Hope this helps.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim,
what about an overhead gantry crane that travels in the two horizontal dimensions, with a grab bucket. That way you can push the barges under the gantry with the tug and then unload. The gantry cranes where I worked at a cement works in NSW Australia took the material to the stock pile. They could simultaneously supply material to the raw mill hopper feed. You could do the same but instead of the hopper feeding a mill it could feed the conveyor to your silo with underneath rail loader. Just my 2 cents worth of ideas. Really like you modelling work and the pond is fantastic. Well done.

Paul

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Ya, I'm sort of leaning toward some form of gantry crane. I think I'll keep it stationary and the trolley will go out over the barge and back to the conveyor or stock pile. And, the clam grab will go up and down.

I wish I could draw better, I would love to show some sketches and get more feedback. It would also be nice to see some of it on paper first before I start building.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Just two pictures of the start of the barge winch system. This will be the winch mounted on the dock. I plan to string a cable (string) continuous around the drum to a pulley at each end of the dock. I plan to install 2-4 shackles on the barge side of the line that can be hooked to the barges easily. This particular drum is made using two parts of brass tube and two fender washers.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psd935c17b.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps23325093.jpg

Going to hook this one up using two push button switches and use a couple nimh or nicad cells to run it.

I'm hoping I can install a spring so e where on the line and friction on the drum with about one wrap, have to see if that works out.

Jim

Wiring Help Please...
 

Man my brain has stopped working...:confused:

Here is about the fifth drawing I have made but none of them look like they will work. In this one, I think the battery will short out when a push button is pressed.

The switches are norm open. There should be a way to do this with two push button switches correct?

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps71c11ad1.jpg

I want the servo to turn CW or CCW depending on which button is pushed.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim-looks like you have everything planned out good. As for the switch-you can do this with-1- switch. You need a-6-pole double throw switch and X the wires from pos. to neg. Kinda hard to explain but think about it and you will get it. Attach motor wires to center.

neg. center pos.
pos. center neg.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

MM,

Ya, I have seen the DPDT toggle setup, but I sort of wanted to do it with two round push buttons. That way you just release the button and it stops. I was also thinking two round push switches would look better than the toggle.

I may try to use a SPDT toggle and one push button. I really want to use at least one push button as a safety element, so it won't just keep running if someone flips it on and leaves it on.

Thanks for the comment.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim-I think it will work with the-2- switches but you may need to use-3- pole switches and still use the-X-method. You can figure it out:D

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

I do not think you can do it with your SPST switches at least without adding some relays..
You can get momentary DPDT switches in push button, toggle or rocker....
The biggest problem I can see with Push Button DPDT switch is when you pull your barge one way and stop... then you want to pull a bit more the same direction the push button switch is going to auto reverse so you would have to do 2 pushes to continue your original direction.. Toggle or Rocker are direction specific.. toggle or rock the direction you want to go..

Momentary switches auto return to off...

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

I think You could do it with 2 DPST switches..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/660V-Ui-10A-...-/230914514657

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

The switch thing drove me nuts, so I decided to skip ahead to testing the winch on the dock using alligator clips.

Well, now I have another issue.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps909ed8d6.jpg

I made the little aluminum bracket on the servo motor to guide the line as it rolls onto and off of the drum. You can see in the pic that the line wants to angle toward one side of the drum or the other. It moves outboard when the drum turns one way, and moves back in when the rotation is reversed.

You can see that the guide slots in the bracket don't help much for keeping the lines untangled.

It moves the barges fine, until it wraps up on itself.:(. Then it starts dragging stuff all over the place!:p

I'm hoping for a bit of brilliance from the audience like we had with the conveyor drum crown and tracking issue.

I won't be offended if you tell me I did it wrong.:D

Oh, and about the switches, I went out a SECOND time thinking I was getting a solution to the switch issue Nd got home and realized the spdt button switches where snap switches, and still don't completely solve the problem for me.

I'm going to give up on push buttons and use one dpdt slide switch and a single button switch to energize the system.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim-I don't have an answer for your drum problem. But on the switches I think you can use the push-button switch if you use the-6-pole double throw switch for the polarity reversing. Cut one wire from your winch and go to the p.b. switch. The winch should run one direction. Flip the p.r. switch and the winch should run the other direction. All from-1- p.b. switch. If you need it, I will try to draw you a diagram.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Look at this link for servo controlers, http://www.servocity.com/html/2_servo_joystick.html
Cheer's, Neil.

Motor Control
 

I have NOT been very careful with my text and description of the barge position system.:rolleyes:

In my motor control diagram and a lot of my text I have labeled the motor as a servo, and in fact it started out life that way. But, I have removed the signal wire from the servo and it is now just a DC motor with a stack of gears on top of it that reduces the output speed. It still looks very much like a servo.

Anyway, I got a DPDT slide switch and used one of my push button switches and made an enclosure from an old parts box.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8137121a.jpg

Now, back to why the cable wants to creep on the drum and tangle.:(

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Interesting project Jim! For reversing the winch motor direction, perhaps you could also consider a self-centering, three position, double pole, double throw toggle switch. They are spring loaded to the center 'off' position, which would give the same effect as using two separate momentary contact push buttons, but control would be quicker, due to you not having to remove your fingers from the switch to change directions.

Here is a 20 amp switch that works exactly what I describe, and it's cheap!

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...MENTARY/1.html

As for your cables getting wrapped over each other, at the place I work, we use an exact winching set-up like that to exchange rolling pallets on one of our cutting lasers. Here's the thing with that type of winch system. The cable will naturally walk one or the other, as it pulls either direction. You can't force it to stay in the center of the drum, or it will begin to cross over itself. The cable needs freedom to walk from one end of the drum, to the other, depending on the direction it is rotating. So with that said, you need two things to make it work well.

1) Your drum needs to be long enough in length to allow the cable to walk freely from one end to the other, and this length depends on how much winching travel distance is required. The more travel you need, the longer the length of the winch drum.

2) You need some means of adjustment for the winching drum alignment. This is tricky. Ideally you want the cable to 'walk' from one end of the drum to the other, at the extremes of it's travel, as it winches. This means the cable should be centered on the drum, at the exact halfway point, of the total distance traveled by whatever the winch is moving. To put it another way, if you have 24" of total winching travel, at the 12" mark (halfway) the cable should be close to center on the drum. At 0", it will be at one side of the drum, or the other. At 24", the cable will have walked to the opposite side. Hopefully that makes sense.

Now the adjustment for alignment purposes is important because if your cable is not centered on the drum, at the halfway point, at one extreme, or the other, the cable will walk itself clear off the drum. You need to be able to adjust (skew) the drum along it's parallel axis, so that the cable stays within the limits of the drum. If the cable is running more torward one end then the other, the whole winching drum (and motor) needs to be skewed at an angle to encourage the cable to stay within the bounds of the drum, and to correct for the point at which the cable stops at the ends of it's travel. We adjust this on our system with jack bolts, which changes the angle of the drum, in relationship to the cable. More angle will encourage the cable to walk more one way then the other. It's something that you really need to play with to get it all dialed in. To much angle and the cable will run off the drum at the extreme.

I hope this will give you some ideas to try. It's something that is easier to show then to simply explain, but I'm hoping you can understand what I just typed!

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

EsP,

That all makes perfect sense. :eek:

I ran out of daylight yesterday so my testing had to stop. And, now with the switch all finished, I can test out changes much easier.

I am not total committed to a single drum setup. Been thinking about how I might run a drum at each end of the dock instead of a closed loop like I have now. Wonder if I'm not going to have room for, or it is going to require a really long drum. I'm winching at a very minimum 19", and possibly twice that. Maybe today I can measure the ratio of distance traveled to cable walk?

My thought about that, I wonder if it will be a problem with one drum "growing" and the other shrinking. Which would cause slack or strain in the cable.

And, I actually found a toggle switch exactly like you describe, but I'm happy with the current setup. I'll get a few better pics today and possible a video.

Thanks for the info! It really helps me works out problems by describing stuff like this.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Well, after some testing on the bench, it looks like with my 1/4" wide by 1/4" diameter drum I get about 8" travel from one shoulder to the other. I'm using a heavy thread for cable. If it is simple math/ratio I'm going to need about a 1" wide drum. Hum, need to look at the dock and see if I'm gona like that? Not sure if the leverage on the end is going to be a problem? Would need to mount it in a carrier bracket.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Here are a few pics and a video of the dock side testing of the barge winch system.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps52835e35.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps31456161.jpg

http://youtu.be/9hnngoVEPoc

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Never one to slow down...how about this idea? The belt will drive the secondary drum and should slip enough to account for uneven drum speed due to line stacking. (One direction anyway, might not work going the other way?)

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps94e73e52.jpg

Would need to build a frame to hold both drums, but that should be easy.

(I wonder if I drink too much coffee in the morning?):p

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Hum.....

I was hoping that the taper on the two belt pulleys would cause the drive belt to shift from one side to the other side when the direction changes. What actually happens is the belt (rubber band) walks to one side and stays there no matter the direction of rotation.

I was going to use this setup to give alternating speed to the cable drums for each direction. That way I could go to two drums instead of one, and the slack issue would be managed by the taper drums.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psd01f80c1.jpg

If it worked, I was going to use a longer shaft on each axel and drive the cable drums from the extensions.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim- what you have seems to work pretty well. If you need more travel just make a longer drum and support the outer end. The-2-drum idea? I think that will be trouble-(just my opinion). I always say when building use the K.I.S.S. method :D Enjoying watching your work and I am sure you are learning as you go. Have fun.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim, have you considered using a chain drive, driven by the servo? Continuous operation, in either direction, no tracking issues, and you could probably mount a cam to the chain to engage a dog on the barge, to pull or push where you want it. Might be a little more reliable and simpler. It may not be the scale look you are after though..? There is some pretty small and light chain you could use, with sprockets designed to bolt right to a servo output shaft. Couldn't be easier. Just use a simple method (idler sprocket) to keep your chain tight, and you're good to go!

http://www.servocity.com/html/sprockets___chain.html

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

ESP,

Ya, I was thinking about that yesterday as a matter of fact. I actually already have some chain and two servo heads from servo city. I may try that at some point. I wish I could find some smaller chain, I remember some bent wire stuff from an old clock or something from my boyhood tinkering days...

For those of you still following along, here is a picture I found from a company that makes the full scale systems.


http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps722bf1b7.jpg

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8a2ca295.jpg


The Wintech Uni-Move System is a single winch system in which cables exit the winch in both directions. This type of system is commonly referred to as a continuous loop or one rope on/one rope off system. Uni-Move is available with both single speed and variable speed drives. The winch drum is grooved and is designed to accommodate the total shuttle travel of the barge. Total travel distance in a continuous loop system is limited to the length of cable contained in a single layer.

Note where at the end they state the total available travel is limited to the single wrap cable length. " I could have told em that." :D

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Servo motor question...

With a typical servo, is there a way to reduce the power off drag/braking effect?

If I could reduce the unpowered brake on either servo, I would be able to power ONLY the in feed winch and let the tailing winch free wheel. This would eliminate the slack cable issue.

With the futaba S148 that I'm am using now, the unpowered brake is to strong to expect it to unwind without a LOT of pull.

I think the braking effect is all coming from the stack of gears on the top of the servo.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Hey Jim have you thought about using 2 drums on your winch and connecting a rubber band or small spring to pick up any slack or tension .This could be added mid point of your tow line .might be worth a try

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

What if the cable didnt have to wrap all the way around the drum. It should not take much force at all to move the barges. If you built it like a basic rope tow at a ski resort you wouldnt have the problem with the calbe walking on the drum. Put a large traction wheel on the motor with smaller pullys below it on both sides. The cable is fed in below the small pulley, around the traction wheel and back out under the other small pulley. You could even spring load the pulleys to maintain tension.

Kind of like the block used to pull up the pots on deadliest catch.

http://www.kolstrand.com/catalog/pro...71/image/2303/



Here is another homemade version of a ski tow that shows the principle I am talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXNlPtOtWo

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Good ideas all! I thought I was going to need a spring, just to keep tension on the system.

I like the tow rope idea. I should be able to do something like that.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

FB,

That was a great idea! I should try to find some smaller tires and wheels so the speed is a bit slower. I also need to clean up the dock, move the eyes out to the ends of the dock, and I will drill directly to the top of the dock instead of my temp blocks. And fasten the winch motor down. Probably move the motor to one end of the dock.

Here is the ride along in the barge test video.
http://youtu.be/Hd5SZlAa9c4


Thanks a bunch for all the suggestions and brain power!

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Glad I could help. That works really well. Your right a smaller tire would do the trick. Dont count on me offering up another good idea for a long time, one per year is about all I am good for.:D As I have said before, I appreciate you sharing with us. Your pond and creations are awesome. With the new babies, this forum is the only involvement I have time for in this great hobby.

Re:barge position system
 

Here is a quick video of the final install of my barge position system.

http://youtu.be/0s6T4S_-ZIM

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Jim-I think you got it! Looks perfect to me. Is your motor set-up waterproof or is it portable so you can get it out of the weather. Do you know how long it takes to load-1-barge with the conveyor? Nice job!

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Tom,

Thanks. The motor would probably be ok in the rain. I'm planning to build a simple little shed to put over it mostly for looks. The way it turned out, the bracket the motor and wheels are attached to is sprung just a bit and simply slides in between the two angle brackets that are bolted down to the concrete. So, it is simply lift out, no tools required.

I think it is about 1/3 faster loading with the conveyor, from 15 minutes down to 10. May be a bit better now with the dock winch. I should build a silo to store sand and another conveyor. It would be neat to get the conveyor running full load, I'll bet it would load a barge in five minutes or less if the silo was full and held at least a barge load of sand.

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

The silo would be a nice addition to your "mini diorama". I noticed on one of the loading videos that you were having a hard time with the dragline keeping up with the conveyor. Just need more practice :D. Or perhaps a larger collector on the conveyor that you could fill before starting it and maybe then the dragline could keep up. Just a suggestion, you are doing a great job. I am a "water nut" and if I had this set-up 20yrs. ago you would have never got me away from the site.

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Tom,

I was wrong on the times. Loaded 1.5 barges today using the new winch, conveyor and dragline.

It must have been 30 minutes to load one with out the conveyor, the new time for one is 20. I gain a bit by not having to swing 180 with every lift.

Need to get back on the screen separator and u loading dock, and gantry crane using the clam bucket.

Better get to work! :p

Jim

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

nice setup u have for the barges do u need a tug boat to pull them

Re: Barge Unloading Facility Build
 

Just thought I would post a link to this video for you. I happened across this one today, and thought it was a really nice model.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4PGbhXjNPM