Shovel mechanics

[jerry56]

On the old style mining shovels like this one
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MDnxrDHvqoU/maxresdefault.jpg

Is the "stick" powered... or does it just slide through the boom as the bucket is raised and lowered....

[Krewmember]

Yes, the dipper handle is powered in and out on a shovel. Some use a rack and pinion some are cable driven others use chain along the dipper handle to a sprocket. Steam era shovels had a steam engine on the boom to drive the pinion, diesel and gas machines used a chain running down the boom to drive the pinion or sprocket. Check out the youtube channel "SteamCrane" lots of good footage of shovels in action.

It looks like the shovel in that image is a chain driven rack and pinion handle.

I hope this is of some help.


-Shawn-

[jerry56]

Yes a lot !!!
I've watched videos of them working and it looked like they were powered in various ways but you really couldn't see how.... Then some looked like it was just gravity ... I was hoping for gravity cause that would simplify things....now I have to figure out something small that will fit in a boom... I'll check out that site...
I like that Northwest Model 6.... and the Bucyrus-Erie 10B....
I don't have any machining capabilities so I'll have to do it all by hand or 3d printing so I have to keep it simple....

[Krewmember]

You are probably right about gravity being used to let the boom down. But the dipper handle needs side back to start a cut. I'm not claiming to be a expert on cable shovels, just trying to share what I have observed.

A rack and pinion mechanism would probably be easiest to 3d print and the most straight forward as you can have a motor direct drive the pinion.


-Shawn-

[frizzen]

I have seen several different crowd setups on the Dippers between brands of Facing Shovel / Power Shovel.

Old patent info is sometimes really helpful to see how it worked and what times various things became available. Scans of the machine setup manuals are also really helpful to see what's going on.

Which models are you thinking about?

Unit with Roller-chain crowd
https://youtu.be/PzEmF2GgP1g

Bucyrus-Erie looks like Cable crowd
https://youtu.be/3GQVXtvudok

Tech manuals like
https://constructioncranes.tpub.com/TM-5-3810-201-12/index.htm
Specifically
https://constructioncranes.tpub.com/TM-5-3810-201-12/TM-5-3810-201-120051.htm
And the next page that shows reeving diagrams

[Krewmember]

Here is some scans from my Bucyrus-Erie 22-B manual showing the cable routing and top-down view of the boom for the shovel.

The Bucyrus-Erie 22-B is a cable type machine, if you look at the cable routing two cables wrap around a pulley in the boom, one cable goes to the top of the dipper and the other to the bottom, when the drum at the pivot of the boom is rotated one cable unwinds and the other is wound pulling the dipper in or out.

https://i.imgur.com/rOKpcAZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/1lB4psq.png





-Shawn-

[jerry56]

I'm just in the very early planning stages and don't really know what I'm doing but I've never let that stop me before.....
First I'm not a rivet counter what ever I do will be a "representation" of an actual shovel...
I'm thinking this could be made to look similar to a Bucyrus-Erie 10B or a small Lima
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52106558862_2fc60cd84e_z.jpg
And this could be a Northwest 88B ish...
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52108093695_90eb554b37_z.jpg
I know they are not perfect matches but to be honest I don't have the skills to make a perfect scale model but I think it would be fun and unique if I could make one work....
If not then I'll shelve the white shovel and make a cable hoe or dragline out of the green one.

[frizzen]

Since we're not rivet counting or wanting THIS exact model, it's possible to be much easier.

Before even getting into the power stick return parts, I might start by seeing how that Structo shovel can operate with something like just a dead-eye at boom tip, pulley on dipper by the bucket, pulley on boom tip, back to cable drum in house.
Maybe go a little heavier reeved so you get the 2 big sheeves by the bucket that looks like it was more common on the big machines.

It's not going to be as efficent at digging with bucket moving in a radius as the real ones pulling in an elipse, but it might not need that much engineering to work pretty well.

[jerry56]

That was kind of my plan in the beginning just make it work as best it can as the toy was built....efficiency isn't really important with this one just making it work with some pulleys and cables etc. I think it would look kind of cool with the pulleys spinning and actually loading dirt.
So do you think leaving the dipper fixed and just have a boom up and down and dipper up and down it would work ok.... I guess you would have to move up on the dirt pile to keep material in reach. Then I only need to design two drums and a mount for them...
Put some Bucyrus-Erie colors on it, I have a Huina lower track section I was going to use for the tracks....I think it would look ok...and work

[frizzen]

I've never run one.
Since you'll probably also use a cable drum to control the Boom, you should be able to use the stick Hoist and Slew to chew through all of the exposed face in reach, then lower the Boom and take another set of passes a couple times before you need to advance the machine.

It won't be quite as cool as having the stick wildly swinging around too, but also probably easier learning to dig with.

[jerry56]

Thanks for everybody's input it really helped me get this figured out.... now to order some parts from you know where so I can have them by Christmas....

[Finster]

Just in case this might be an option for you there is another type of cable front shovel. The dipper is fixed to the boom on a pivot point and the boom is raised lowered to position the bucket. Here is an example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl7ra-pp-u8 This type is found on old excavator cranes by Priestman, Dolberg and Fuchs to name a few.

[jerry56]

That's exactly what I was envisioning for this one....Just need to change the dipper a little so I can get the cables past the back side of the dipper arm but I think I can make this happen... thanks for that video...

[frizzen]

Cool video and great suggestion Finster!

IF i'm seeing this right you've got: Boom winch (3 sheeves), Crowd winch (2 sheeves), and a Bucket trip that just routes along both booms into cab
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4037513

Priestman Wolf as dragline with clutches on cable drums to allow 'bucket casting'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv1tj_5-8SM

Priestman Wolf digging with a 'Skimmer'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkw0BT3hc-o

[jerry56]

Yeah it look like it's pretty basic.....

[frizzen]

I also just learned about the nylint ''Big Dig", which seems to mostly operate that way with a fixed dipper fulcrum, and without as much line-doubling since kids are high torque / low speed.

http://www.tnttoytrucks.com/NYLATECON1.html
If you're ok with a Michigan crane cab, or their later one with antiglare windows.

https://www.instructables.com/Toy-Steam-Shovel/
Detailed scratch build, kinda 1920s Marion?

[jerry56]

Yeah, Nylint used those for a couple different toys.... I have a couple that I plan on doing something different with .
That scratch build is slick, there is a toy like that and I've thought about doing it

[frizzen]

Still just teasers about the ''something different'' nylint cranes?

I've thought a couple times about scratch-building or finding one of the 1920s-style vintage toy Steam Shovels in Poor enough condition. Also seemed like it could be fun to do as a 'Mike Mulligan' book tribute "Mary Anne" power shovel instead of building it straight.
Plus running a Smoker unit to the smoke stack or cylinders wouldn't look all weird like a blown headgasket.

I've always really liked how versitle the old cable-machines could be: Crane? Clamshell? Dragline? Cable Hoe? Facing Shovel? Pile Driver? Skimmer? Yarder? Yeah...we've got ya covered.

[jerry56]

I think I've pretty much worked out the pulleys on each side of the boom tip that carry the cable down to the bucket... I'll 3D print them so if they wear fast I can just print more... But I need to print the pulley to mount to the boom and at the bucket, it will need to be in some sort of a housing or bracket ( not sure of the correct term) so the can swing freely ... I haven't worked out how I'll make the "bracket"... I'm sure it can be done but I just haven't figured out how I'm going to do it yet...
lol.. Yeah just teasers...I have some vast plans but just half vast ideas.....I don't build things fast... so I hate to say I'm going to build something then take 5 years to do it....lol

[frizzen]

This looks like it was a pretty common setup with the hoist dead-eye mounted on the buckets sheeve block.
https://www.equipmentjournal.com/vintage-heavy-equipment/1921-marion-model-21-gas-powered-shovel/

Something like this gear rack (2nd link) might be able to get the crowd control working seperately like (1st link, top animation)

https://handwiki.org/wiki/Engineering:Power_shovel

https://www.pitsco.com/TETRIX-Rack-and-Pinion-Linear-Slide-Pack

[jerry56]

I bookmarked those racks and gear....
Just need to figure out how to make the pulley and yoke combination for the bucket and boom tip.... mostly the yoke.....that the pulley needs to rest in...

[frizzen]

Your first example pic has a single 'horizontal' Sheeve at the bucket, that floats in the mounts to keep the sheeve inline with rope pull
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MDnxrDHvqoU/maxresdefault.jpg

Looking at this model,
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52106558862_2fc60cd84e_z.jpg

What if ya drill pair of holes on Right and Left side walls at Top Aft corners of Bucket for a steel axle to run left-right. Chunk of brass tube that runs over the axle right-left just under the width of bucket to move freely, roll a sheet of flat brass around the tube, extend the sheet up far enough to house and guide the rope around the pulley. Little solder, poke a couple holes, print a pulley. Maybe even skeletonize the down/aft side to help it shed dirt from pulley?
(Basically making a bigger version of your Nylint cranes Boom elevation tip pulley, but where that wire bridal ties it to boom is your new axle in the bucket)

Or the bigger machines often ran a pair of taller 'vertical' sheeves, which could probably just be done with putting the pair of pulleys along side the dipper stick with a couple spacers inboard of the pulleys. I doubt you'll need that much mechanical advantage.
Similar to the set of outboard pulleys on my Michigan (boom angle)
http://i.imgur.com/NA2dj3Nh.jpg

This seemed kinda cool, talks about history and why dipper powered crowd works
https://www.inventionandtech.com/content/shovel-helped-build-america

[jerry56]

I see how that one is squared off at the bottom where it attaches to the bucket I could probably bend up some brass like that... I think I have the boom sheaves worked out... just getting that yoke design to look right....Your idea seems the most doable right now.

[frizzen]

I'd missed the square profile there. They also have several sizes of brass Square and Box tubing profiles, but i'm not sure how that bucket scales out to know if those could be an even easier option.

I dunno, i'm just trying to think low-tech solutions.
"Then you just take it out of your 5-axis cnc mill, chamfer the edges, and put the new piece of jewelry on the shovel"

[jerry56]

LOL....5-axis CNC mill....more like tin snips,vice grips and a hammer....
If you look at that one small shovel it has what looks like a square shaped yoke that the pulley rides in at the bucket....that's what I'm thinking thru....

[frizzen]

Maybe something like the multipack could be a good start?
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B082WP7GGZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Couple holes, some cut & file work

[jerry56]

I think I have most of the materials to make it... just need some brass sheet, the local hobby shop has that....I'll "study on it" for a while probably won't start it until this fall...

[frizzen]

Gotta be careful though.
It starts off with "I want a 'steam-shovel' to run", then next thing you know "Well now i need a steam dumptruck to load, so it doesn't look too weird loading a modern tri-axle dump."

https://youtu.be/ZpFqJguz8Vw

----
Some more inspiration

https://www.nesys.org/HCEA/AdPix/AdPixTom.html

https://heritagemachines.com/plant-machinery/more-steam-shovel-history/

https://youtu.be/_Y-XAn9K-Ok

[jerry56]

LOL I kind of already went there..... got the parts to build a 55 Ford dump truck... not steam but closer period wise

[frizzen]

Found a collection of some Cable Excavator ads from 1920-40s that look like they could be pretty useful

https://www.nesys.org/HCEA/AdPix/AdPixTom.html

[jerry56]

Yes they will be.... great timing too, I just started this week experimenting with some pulley designs and sizes...I think I have most of the boom mechanics worked out in my head hopefully they work in reality...
Still working on how I'm going to make a frame work to mount the cable drums and their servos...

[Krewmember]

Some really cool stuff there. Thank you for sharing Frizzen.

That Buckeye "Clipper" shovel has a really cool looking house on it. I may put one in the future builds list :thinking:


-Shawn-

[jerry56]

I noticed that too.... kind of a streamliner/ Art deco look.... pretty cool on a shovel

[frizzen]

Yeah, that Buckeye Clipper has really nice looking lines, and the sign-painter graphics on the side really do it for me. Plus i was checking out the trucks that are being loaded.

Most of the period photos i've found don't show the rigging very well. The ads seem like the cables were redrawn heavier to help show that off to potential buyers

[ddmckee54]

Here's one for some inspiration, Crueby's Mann steam truck build. https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9748.0.html
Chris also built the Lombard shown in our Tracked Utility Vehicles section.

He's got a lot of other builds on the Model Engine Maker website if you're interested, I highly recommend his Marion Shovel build.

Don

[frizzen]

Ddmckee,
Wow the model engine maker site has some killer work!!!

Yeah, that Lombard log hauler Tracked-train thing was crazy awesome

[ddmckee54]

Yeah, Home Model Engine Machinist is another good site.
HMEM (https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/)

I think HMEM was one of the first model engineering sites that I found.

[frizzen]

Also ran across this site with a bunch of vintage mining info while i was looking for some Mack M15 - M100 stuff

http://stripmine.org/

Equipment files
http://www.stripmine.org/equipfiles/index.html

[jerry56]

Great reference.. I found some really good pictures of the Tournadozer

[Krewmember]

Thanks for sharing. I have been looking for info on the bucyrus 88-b. the site has spec sheets and manual scans! I'm now one step closer ;)

[9W Monighan]

I have lots of info and drawings for the 88B

[Krewmember]

I have lots of info and drawings for the 88B
Any info that you would be willing to share will be vary helpful and greatly appreciated. Thanks.


-Shawn-

[9W Monighan]

How deep do you want to get? I haven't looked at that stuff for a while. I have some dimensioned overall house sheet metal and can't remember what other prints and parts books.
PM me your number I could text some of it to you.

[frizzen]

Also i think i should mention an old favorite reference that's probably mostly overlooked. Still not sure which model of "Mary-anne" shovel she is though.

https://www.rmichelson.com/illustration/virginia-lee-burton-2/mike-mulligan-and-his-steam-shovel/

'Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel' is far more informative than newer references such as 'Goodnight, goodnight construction site'

Just remember to leave a way out... even if you dig better and faster when everyone is watching.

[jerry56]

LOL Finally something I understand

[Krewmember]

Here is the reeving instructions from the buckeye clipper manual. I know you are not trying to make a replica of it, but maybe it can help you in some way.



https://i.imgur.com/AWqKFCp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I5zKvMn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YW88leT.jpg




-Shawn-

[Krewmember]

Here is some more useful pages.


https://i.imgur.com/bDqgwRGh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/B16vZhbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SQaI7hNh.jpg




-Shawn-

[jerry56]

WOW, thanks Shawn, those are great... I couldn't find anything on the clipper other than some grainy pictures...
I didn't know there was an "A" frame under the sheet metal, I just assumed the boom hoist cable went straight to the hoist drum. I could tell there was a sheave there and the cabling made 2 trips but not much else. Plus that's the clearest picture of the boom end...What I had in mind was pretty close...
No I'm not doing an exact replica but I want to get close and this really helps...!!!

[frizzen]

WW2 still saw some cable machines in service.

https://www.militarytrader.com/mv-101/heavy-hookers-trucks-with-hoist

https://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/quickwaytruckshovelcompany.htm

https://heritagemachines.com/nostalgia/ruston-steam-shovels/

https://heritagemachines.com/commercials/the-manitowoc-crane-story/

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/02/22/a-seabee-on-iwo-jima-the-men-who-drove-cranes-and-cats-also-served/

One of those was a story that sounded a bit familiar. (Unrelated story time)
I had a Grandpa that worked at as a pie maker at a Bakery pre-war, ended up enlisted in the Navy. Shortly after finishing cook & baker school, the navy decided they needed Crane operators more than cooks. Off to tech school for that, then got to run a harbor crane loading ships. Later another transfer to go run a small crane on some Pacific islands as they advanced toward VJ-day...

[jerry56]

Great stuff there Frizzen, and cool to hear about your grandpa... "the needs of the military come first" as they say...

[frizzen]

Old-school way to 'remote control' a shovel

https://youtu.be/QcdEXTDGArs?feature=shared

1940s O F Storm toy steam shovel

Gotta wonder how many big machine operators learned using little machines
--
http://mininggeotek.blogspot.com/2013/06/power-shovel.html

---
How big is this machine?

Scaled YARDS

1 yard of dirt is a cube 36"x36"x36"
1/12 scale... 3"
1/14 scale... 2.571"
1/16 scale... 2.25"

Half-yard is a cube . NOPE
1/12 scale...
1/14 scale...
1/16 scale...

I kinda want to make some plastic scoops in scaled yards to go measure these toys

[jerry56]

LOL... that's pretty cool....

[frizzen]

I've learned that the late 1940s/early 50s style Structo power shovel is more of a 'tin-toy' than 'pressed steel' toy. I think it's worth patterning and remaking in a heavier material, but it's not really a conversion option...

https://imgur.com/H7N1I3lh.jpg

[ddmckee54]

Your math is a little off. 1 cubic yard IS 36"x36"x36", but 1/2 of a cubic yard is 18"x36"x36". 18"x18"x18" would be 1/8 of a cubic yard.

1 cubic yard is 46,656 cubic inches, so 1/2 of a cubic yard is 23,328 cubic inches. This works out to a cube about 28.573" on each side.

At the scales you listed:
1/12 scale=2.38" (Close enough to 2-3/8")
1/14 scale=2.04" (Close enough to 2")
1/16 scale=1.78" (1-25/32" would be the closest fraction, 1-3/4" would be close enough for government work)

[jerry56]

Frizzen... That toy has the same boom and dipper that my Structo has.... they just changed up the house for the newer toy....You could convert it...Just need to re-enforce some spots...