Dragline Rebuild

[modelman]

I thought this might be a good time to post my project. I built this dragline many years ago and it needs some work now so I guess this is a good time. It originally was powered by a computer power supply that a friend gave me and told me which wires to use to get the voltages I needed. After adding some components to help with the electrical noise from the motors it worked good for several years but now the P.S. will not turn on. It will be replaced with a linear P.S. for the hoist and swing. The swing motor is also not working and never has worked like I wanted it to so it will also be replaced.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_0539_zps0710c537.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_0500_zpsac7e06e7.jpg
I made the mechanical joy-sticks using old R/C car throttle resistors as a speed controller. Here is the drag control-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1702_zpscd64faf0.jpg They are crude but they work.

[modelman]

I have had this project started a long time (I work slow) and I'm not sure when it will be finished but I work a little every day. The drag controller will be replaced with a variac control that plugs into 110 v. ac. I will probably use the swing & hoist joystick that I made until I can get an electronic joystick. Starting the teardown-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1708_zpsf4bfe967.jpg
The swing motor has already been removed in this picture-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1715_zpsf3194063.jpg
Next I have to turn the base over and remove the bearings that hold the swing rotation plate. I am working on the new swing gearcase and I will post more later.

[Rvjimd]

I enjoy seeing the pictures! Keep em coming, fun to see the unit come apart and go back together.

Jim

[modelman]

Here is one for you jim- I found this old picture showing the original swing motor and drive.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/ModelDraglinePictures_zps71affe2b.png
This unit is big! The motor is really hi-RPM so I had to use a planetary and many more gears to get the RPM down. It also draws 3.5 amps and that is more than the model should use on all-3-functions. I am really struggling with the new gearcase but hopefully I can make it work-more later.

[pumptech]

Very nice dragline Tom , been kicking around the idea of building one ,one of these days.

[pumptech]

Hey Tom there's a old dragline out from Tuscaloosa in Brookwood , last I heard it was being restored .The name of the dragline is Mr Tom found a few pics on the web , search for Drummonds mr tom dragline

[modelman]

Very nice dragline Tom , been kicking around the idea of building one ,one of these days.

Thanks pumptech-this is the 1st. construction model that I built. Didn't know anything about dragline then and have learned a little since. I think I could make a really nice one now if I were not so old:(.

[modelman]

Hey Tom there's a old dragline out from Tuscaloosa in Brookwood , last I heard it was being restored .The name of the dragline is Mr Tom found a few pics on the web , search for Drummonds mr tom dragline

I think that dragline has been restored and moved. I drove down there twice to watch it cross the road. Missed it the 1st. time but got to see the crossing the 2nd. time but the weather was lousy. Here is-1-of the pictures I took-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/003.jpg

[9W Monighan]

Hey Tom, Nice to see you have been working at your hobby again. I like the control you built. I see what looks like small electrolyte capacitors ( I think) on the rear. What is all that about?
Let see some pictures of you swing gear box.

[Lil Giants]

Yes indeed, good to see you tinkering again Tom. :cool:

[Rvjimd]

Tom,

What is the size and composition of the angle iron use in the boom?

Jim

[modelman]

Hey Tom, Nice to see you have been working at your hobby again. I like the control you built. I see what looks like small electrolyte capacitors ( I think) on the rear. What is all that about?
Let see some pictures of you swing gear box.
Hi steve-I am trying to stay busy and this is what I like. That is capacitors on the controller. The computer P.S. would shut down as soon as I moved the sticks (electric motor noise) and the capacitors added in series (6-pcs.) solved the problem. I will post some pics. of the swing gear-case when I get further along. Now I am just trying to design something that will work in the space I have. I need lots of gear reduction and the gears I am trying to use are actually too big.
Yes indeed, good to see you tinkering again Tom. :cool:
Lil giants joe-thanks-I would say tinkering is a good description of what I am doing :D. Just trying to stay active and I still really like the model building but find it very hard to do what I want to do.

[modelman]

Tom,

What is the size and composition of the angle iron use in the boom?

Jim

Jim-the material is .025" thick sheet metal (a.c. and heating duct material) and I bent it into 1/4"x1/4" angles for the main boom rails and 3/16"x3/16" for some of the bracing.

[modelman]

I found this double-shafted motor that I felt would be a good size for my swing drive and easy to add a flywheel-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1705_zps68e37a35.jpg
The seller didn't know the RPM so I put together a quick test stand. I decided to use the square drive plastic gears from vex thinking they would save me some machining time. They work good for testing but are a bit large and take up a lot of space. I used these extra large gears to find the RPM of the motor-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1703_zps078bb524.jpg
The motor runs at 4950-5000 RPM on 12 volts. Now I have to make the swing gear-case that will reduce down to approx. 9 RPM and the swing gear and pinion will reduce it to 1.5-1.6 RPM.

[modelman]

This segment is lesson #1 in what NOT TO DO!!! I had some small sprockets and I decided to make my own swing gear to match the pitch. I had to make it in-4- pcs. because at the time I didn't have a pcs. of alum. that big. After a lot of machining I got it to work but it is a bit "jerky". and not smooth at all. So now I have ordered the proper gear and pinion and while I am waiting I can work on the swing gear-case. Lesson learned-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1719_zpse0238bb6.jpg
More later-

[Rvjimd]

Still very interesting to look at! What exactly do you think made it not smooth? Pitch not perfectly matched? Not enough teeth?

Very nice looking, keep the updates coming!

Jim

[modelman]

Jim-the pitch is good. The sides of the teeth on the main gear are not cut on the correct angle. I had no way to do that. I think that is causing the jerky motion since the pinion is not engaging smoothly as it rotates. The way this model is designed I cannot use a larger main gear. The one I have ordered is a 32-p-128T x 24T and I hope that will solve the problem. The swing gear-case is driving me nuts but I will keep working at it.

[modelman]

I have some work done on the swing assembly. I got the holes drilled and reamed so that is the critical part. I still have a little milling to do on the plates and another set-up on the other-6-bushings.-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1721_zpsc2f09b98.jpg
I probably didn't save any work by using the square drive parts. I tried running the square shafts in nylon and brass bushings but the drag was way to much and caused the motor to lag and draw to much current. I had to get a 4-jaw chuck and turn round ends on the .125" shafts and now they work really smooth. This is the gears I have to pack into these frames to get the pinion speed down to 9-RPM.-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1724_zps3f960363.jpg
I am still waiting on the pinion and swing gear and also a 1/4" shaft for the pinion. I'm getting closer.

[Rvjimd]

That is a bunch of gears, huh? I'm sure you have already considered a low rpm gear motor? Going to be cool getting all those gears turning!

Jim

[modelman]

That is a bunch of gears, huh? I'm sure you have already considered a low rpm gear motor? Going to be cool getting all those gears turning!

Jim

Your right jim-it took awhile to work this out but I think I got it. Here is a couple of pictures showing all the gears in place-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1726_zps89ab1c51.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1729_zps4f8401c1.jpg
The 1/4" bushing is for the pinion shaft and that will be another reduction. I would consider this a low rpm motor -5000 rpm-12v. but a gear-motor will not work. It would start & stop instantly and that would cause the bucket to swing side to side. That is why I use a flywheel. It starts slowly and smoothly and does the same when stopping. I probably would not need the flywheel with an electronic speed controller but for now this will work.

[modelman]

I have the swing assembly finished and it works good so I am ready to install it on the model. Here is a few pictures-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1731_zps3b39d0d5.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1732_zps8a675361.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1735_zpsaa103119.jpg
This is a short test video-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTuLGUQFbJg
Now to put everything together and hopefully it will work.

[TRUCKMAKER]

Wow that works nice, a lot of hard work right there, but for me that's the fun part! great job!

[Lil Giants]

So the purpose of the brass counterweight is to smooth out the start/stops? And it kinda looks like you even balanced the counterweight to offset the grub screws of it and the gear below too? What tool do you have to measure that?

[modelman]

Wow that works nice, a lot of hard work right there, but for me that's the fun part! great job!
Thanks for your kind words. I agree, building is the fun part!!
So the purpose of the brass counterweight is to smooth out the start/stops? And it kinda looks like you even balanced the counterweight to offset the grub screws of it and the gear below too? What tool do you have to measure that?

That is correct joe-if I were using an electronic s.c. the flywheel probably wouldn't be needed. I have a balancer that I used to balance my props when I was racing R/C boats but the flywheel is not balanced perfectly. To do that I would need a polished stainless shaft .080" dia. about 3" long and that I do not have. I just drilled a hole opposite the set screw and there is also-2-holes drilled in the top (for extra weight if needed) but I did that with the rotary table so they are drilled and spaced correctly. The balance is close and there is no vibration.

[thebigo]

Very intuitive, would be very cool if you could figure out or design the shoes that could move it from place to place.

[modelman]

Very intuitive, would be very cool if you could figure out or design the shoes that could move it from place to place.

I know how to make a walking system but if you look at the 1st. picture on page 1, this is the only place I have to work this model. There is no place to walk it. A scale step for this machine would be 2-1/2-2-3/4". No room for even one step. I have thought about making it a walker just for the fun of making the parts but it would be time and money wasted so it probably won't happen.

[Izzy]

I love that gear box. Once again, quality work upfront.

I would not have thought to use the flywheel.

[9W Monighan]

Lots of fooling around getting that gear train right eh?
I never needed the flywheel because I can program the ramp up on the motor with the settings on my motor drive boards. They can be set from 0-20sec. to ramp up to full rpm then down, "regen to stop" or, "coast to stop" Without, you get a big pendulum swinging back and forth :o I also have my radio sticks set up on a curve to ramp up. I may try the flywheel someday just to see how that would work.

[Jared]

I used one of those doohickeys that slow down servo speeds. It gives the same slow acceleration/deceleration with a continuous rotation servo and it tamed my crane down nicely for much more scale operation.

[John T.]

Do you get much backlash with all those gears?

[modelman]

I love that gear box. Once again, quality work upfront.

I would not have thought to use the flywheel.

Thanks a lot-this is the 1st. construction model I built and it is not engineered very well but I think I have learned a little since this old model was built.

[modelman]

Lots of fooling around getting that gear train right eh?
I never needed the flywheel because I can program the ramp up on the motor with the settings on my motor drive boards. They can be set from 0-20sec. to ramp up to full rpm then down, "regen to stop" or, "coast to stop" Without, you get a big pendulum swinging back and forth :o I also have my radio sticks set up on a curve to ramp up. I may try the flywheel someday just to see how that would work.

Yes steve-it took some time to get those gears right. The flywheel works well for me but you are doing the same thing with electronics. Todays electronics work so good that I thought about getting a radio and-3-esc's and be done with it but I am going to try to keep it the old-style manual controls.

[modelman]

I used one of those doohickeys that slow down servo speeds. It gives the same slow acceleration/deceleration with a continuous rotation servo and it tamed my crane down nicely for much more scale operation.
I have no servos or radio on this model.
Do you get much backlash with all those gears?
There is no backlash. The gear mesh is close to perfect.

[modelman]

Just a small update-I got the dragline back together and with this new swing motor I found the swing speed controller doesn't work. :confused: Now I have to sort out this problem and fix or replace things until it works. The flat wound resistor I am using on the controller is only 35-40 years old so I can't imagine why it would go bad. :rolleyes: More later.

[9W Monighan]

Would like to see all the details from your controls but maybe we covered that already. Shouldn't be a big deal to replace a resistor or two. I am getting ready to acquire some swing pedals for my machine. I will give an update when it happens.:D

[Stuff]

ive always wanted one of these sized draglines. the mines here used to have one they took to shows but i think it wondered home with someone.

[modelman]

Would like to see all the details from your controls but maybe we covered that already. Shouldn't be a big deal to replace a resistor or two. I am getting ready to acquire some swing pedals for my machine. I will give an update when it happens.:D

Hi steve-Here is a couple of pictures of the hoist and swing control. The first one is the hoist which works good on the resistor set-up-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100B1671_zps60f28f1d.jpg
This is the swing control which I am rebuilding now-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1660_zps7ddae04c.jpg
I don't think it is a matter of replacing resistors. These cannot be found anymore. They were made for hi-performance car motors which turned hi RPM and drew lots of current. The swing motor I am now using only draws .125 ma. and I think that is why the resistor doesn't work-(not sure). Anyway I am reworking the swing portion and will post pictures as I go.

[modelman]

ive always wanted one of these sized draglines. the mines here used to have one they took to shows but i think it wondered home with someone.

You should build one. That's what I did after watching my grandson play in a dirt pile out behind my house. I thought we could have fun with the dragline together and we did for several years but now he is 15 and no longer cares about this but I guess I am still the kid at heart so I still enjoy running the drag.

[Stuff]

oh i might build one some day!

[modelman]

I am re-building my hoist and swing controller with a different device used for the swing. Here is a picture of the frame with electrics removed-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1747_zpsd5a81dfc.jpg
In this picture you can see the left to right motion (swing) axis is off center.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/Untitled_zpscf362ff3.jpg
This was okay the way it worked before but now it has to be changed to have the axis on center since there will be gears on this. These pcs. are all chopped up since I had to change things a lot to get it to work originally but I am going to re-use the parts and cut on them some more. Here is a little quiz- does anyone know what this is-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/8cb85ac6-21f5-4975-94d9-f96e7054d12a_zps2f87a396.jpg
More coming later

[modelman]

Anybody want to take a guess at what this is? :confused: (I guess no one cares). I have the controller finished and I have a few pictures but if there is no interest in this I will delete this thread.

[9W Monighan]

Potentiometer for the control. Ceramic?

[doodlebug]

A rheostat!

[modelman]

Potentiometer for the control. Ceramic?

A rheostat!

You are both right-It is a 25-watt potentiometer or rheostat, depending on how it is wired.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1752_zps607f95bd.jpg

[modelman]

I started the modification by lowering and enlarging the pivot holes, and making the rotators-

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1750_zps0eb82193.jpg
After lowering the holes I had to put a small extension on the handle-

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/d70d8d44-d16c-4299-8976-307faf3eaddd_zps60ed7f74.jpg
Then I re-assembled the controller and this is how it looked-

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1760_zps1ae4e9ff.jpg

[modelman]

The pot needs to rotate 160 degrees each direction so I put a 3.5 to 1 gear ratio on it.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1762_zps5a448aca.jpg
I needed a 4 to 1 ratio but the pinion would have been to small to fit the pot so I just have to move the joystick a bit further which is not a problem.
I made some changes on the back side of the controller and was able to eliminate these parts-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/8f5cad23-6355-42ed-98d0-a6543a32459e_zpse296e502.jpg


This change also gave my better angles on the return springs and now they go back to neutral consistently-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1768_zpsc6cd4288.jpg

[tc1cat]

Don't delete this thread!! Too many of us just set back and watch and learn from your builds and rebuild. Your ingenuity is always nice to see what you come up with.

[modelman]

I need to do some wiring on the transformer and hook everything up and it should work. In that 1st. picture of the pot. I will be wiring this as a reversing power pot and this will be my swing speed control. More later.

[modelman]

tc1cat-thanks a lot-my parts are rougher than 3-nights in jail but I am more concerned with how they work than how they look and so far they are working great. These parts will all be hidden inside the control box and only the handles will show.

[doodlebug]

Nothing wrong with the new joystick, they look great!

Cheers, Neil.

[modelman]

I have decided to change my controller again. :confused: The swing mode just didn't feel right with the springs plus the springs were not strong enough to return the handle to neutral. I removed the springs and it feels much better. But....with the pot set up as a reverser it has to be centered exactly to keep power from going to the motor. I put a 1/4" strip of epoxy on the pot to give a bit of center dead band but with the over gearing the stick still has no wiggle room and must be perfectly positioned. So I made this detent assembly that solved the problem-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1789_zpsd0f17743.jpg
Here it is assembled-
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/modelman/Dragline%20pictures/Dragline%20Rebuild/100_1792_zps5eee44f1.jpg
As you can see it is adjustable so I will have to play with it a little to get the tension correct on the detent.
I think the problem is more with the operator than the controller but my hands and fingers are not as sensitive as they once were so I had to make it comfortable for me to operate. I think this will be the best solution.

[apfubar]

Looks good!

[9W Monighan]

Did you figure this out yet Tom? I was talking to Jim B last night and he was talking about the problem with centering you were having. What are the micro switches used for? A cut out in the circuit? That would be a way to keep them centered by turning off the voltage.

.

[modelman]

Hi steve-the dragline is finished and working good. The detent took care of the centering problem. There are no micro-switches. I am having a little problem with the drag ropes getting out of the sheaves on the fairlead but I think it is a design problem. Oh well :confused:

[9W Monighan]

Put up a video of her working.

[modelman]

I haven't felt like working on this project for a few months but I decided I needed to get the house back on it and attach all the small parts before they got lost. Small pcs. seem to disappear in my shop, never to be seen again. I made a short video of the testing. Everything is working good, except the operator :(.
https://youtu.be/7nibDcD5ZP8
I taught my grandson to operate this model when he was about 8-years old and he got pretty good at it. We spent a lot of good times moving this dirt but now he is grown up and has his drivers license and is no longer interested in this. Also I have moved this dirt back and forth in this box probably a hundred times and it is no longer fun so I guess I will just park the model.

[dozerbuilder]

Modelman, there's plenty of interest in the build so please don't delete it. Those controllers you have made are just brilliant. Watching your thread with interest.

[Mikem]

The operator seemed to be working very well ,I would have tangled the lines like an extension cord ! Mike

[Cooper]

Just think of the hours of enjoyment that model has given yourself!! One hellofa project!! Sometimes I loose interest in completed projects too, I guess that's why I never really have any finished ones :). That's some pretty nice reworking on the controls!!

[thebigo]

I like your control alot, I like that it is large , makes it more realistic. The more you have to change things to work better is just interesting and fun in itself.

[Rvjimd]

Tom,

Nice video! You really did a nice job on that machine, and it is nice to see a scale RC vehicle move at a scale speed. It amazes me every time I see an RC dragline how effective they move material. It is so simple compared to the hydraulic stuff out there now and it works so well.

Jim

[modelman]

Modelman, there's plenty of interest in the build so please don't delete it. Those controllers you have made are just brilliant. Watching your thread with interest.
Thank you-I like the controllers also.
The operator seemed to be working very well ,I would have tangled the lines like an extension cord ! Mike
Thanks-A dragline is pretty simple to run, only-3-functions, but I am having a hard time handling the controls. Guess it is about time to hang it up.
Just think of the hours of enjoyment that model has given yourself!! One hellofa project!! Sometimes I loose interest in completed projects too, I guess that's why I never really have any finished ones :). That's some pretty nice reworking on the controls!!
Thank you-You are absolutely right!! I have spent many hours running this model. I always wanted to get on a real dragline but this is as close as I got. The controls work nice but still need a bit of tweaking. I have said before that building is more fun than running but I guess that depends on everyones situation.
I like your control alot, I like that it is large , makes it more realistic. The more you have to change things to work better is just interesting and fun in itself.
Thanks-I had to make the controls large because I could not operate a radio anymore (too small). Also I like the realism of it.

[modelman]

Tom,

Nice video! You really did a nice job on that machine, and it is nice to see a scale RC vehicle move at a scale speed. It amazes me every time I see an RC dragline how effective they move material. It is so simple compared to the hydraulic stuff out there now and it works so well.

Jim

Thanks jim-realistic operation is important to me in all models I have built. Also this is what I look for in other models. And yes, draglines are very efficient. I cannot understand why all mines are going away from this system. I timed myself once and if I remember correctly I could move all this dirt in my pit in-12-mins. That is a-5-gallon bucket full of dirt. I think that is pretty good for a small model.

[thebigo]

They are still using them in the Wyoming coal mines? Can't see how you could ever move that much dirt with anything else and be cost effective and effecient?

David

[Lil Giants]

You need a dirtwork project... there's this program on the History channel called America Unearthed, a couple of guys traveling the country with metal detectors looking for artifacts in ppl's backyards... what might be hidden in your backyard Tom ? :D

Could you get a rubber tub big enough to cover the model so you could leave it out in the yard?

[modelman]

They are still using them in the Wyoming coal mines? Can't see how you could ever move that much dirt with anything else and be cost effective and effecient?

David

Yes, I know they are still in use. Some are in Pa. and some are in Fla. and some in the Carolinas and probably others that I don't know about. There are-2-working here in Al. but there are also-3-sitting and rusting away less than-50-miles from my house and the largest in Al.-I think a 2570-BE has been torn down and moved to Columbia and put back in service. Hundreds used to be working in the U.S. alone but the companies are slowly phasing them out. They claim they can maintain smaller shovels and hydraulic machines cheaper. I guess I am just sad and upset that I only got to see-1-working in my lifetime and many young people will never see one.

[modelman]

You need a dirtwork project... there's this program on the History channel called America Unearthed, a couple of guys traveling the country with metal detectors looking for artifacts in ppl's backyards... what might be hidden in your backyard Tom ? :D

Could you get a rubber tub big enough to cover the model so you could leave it out in the yard?

The only thing I know that is hidden in my backyard is an old septic tank joe :D. If I had a project like yours I never would have sold my shovel and truck and would have made a few more models. I think I could protect the model outside but I don't have the desire or energy to do that. 15-years ago I would look on these sites at the R/C construction equipment and get all excited to get out in my shop and build something. Now that urge has past.